A legal violation of student's dignity and privacy

[suncowiam]

What right has been taken away from you because of this "executive order"?

His right to pee next to guys only??? I dunno honestly.

 

[Aštra’el]

@Mindmaster

​

 

[fantome profane]

bunch of pictures

point?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If it happens only once it will already be too much.

How much does it happen relative to trans girls getting assaulted in men's washrooms or change rooms?

Once someone has transitioned - boy or girl - where should they pee? Where should they change?

You argue that trans girls shouldn't change with the other girls; does this mean you support trans boys changing with girls and trans girls changing with boys? Do you think this will cause more or fewer problems than the approach you're objecting to?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Like it or not, what Obama has done is not an overreach of unconstitutional as the Supreme Court has already ruled that discrimination against transsexuals is unlawful. All Obama has done is said that federal law will be enforced.

 

[Acim]

In other words, it will be better than what we have and we will have to deal with other issues when they appear.

If by better you mean possibility for more harm to transexuals in the short term because of desire to get over discrimination hurdles in a quicker fashion and challenge the status quo as if there is no plausible reason for ever disagreeing with a person who claims transgender for own purposes, regardless of the reason, then yes, it will be better. Might take awhile for better to be realized as wonderful. Are we living in a vastly more wonderful existence for say homosexuals than we were 40 years ago? I think many would say yes. Is it all 100% good and no issues left to fight for? I think everyone would say no, and would acknowledge that ugly, hateful discrimination exists in many ways but is far less institutionalized.

IMO, this issue is trickier than anything homosexuality was fighting for. It is challenging a fundamental perception of humanity or species itself. It need not get lost in the woods for simple anti-discrimination policies to occur, but at same time, if not pondering the philosophical challenge, then the emotional one is saying all places where males and females felt comfortable understanding that no one from the opposite sex was allowed, that is now off the table. The comfort part is not off the table, but that's not how the emotional side will filter it. The idea of separating people along lines of gender identification is, or could be, off the table. I think that would ultimately be a good thing. I think for us to all get there as a society could take a really long time, or could go very swiftly. I have doubts that this is what many transexuals are even going for, and are instead just asking to not be faced with hateful, ugly discrimination when they go about their daily lives.

 

[Koldo]

If by better you mean possibility for more harm to transexuals in the short term because of desire to get over discrimination hurdles in a quicker fashion and challenge the status quo as if there is no plausible reason for ever disagreeing with a person who claims transgender for own purposes, regardless of the reason, then yes, it will be better. Might take awhile for better to be realized as wonderful. Are we living in a vastly more wonderful existence for say homosexuals than we were 40 years ago? I think many would say yes. Is it all 100% good and no issues left to fight for? I think everyone would say no, and would acknowledge that ugly, hateful discrimination exists in many ways but is far less institutionalized.

IMO, this issue is trickier than anything homosexuality was fighting for. It is challenging a fundamental perception of humanity or species itself. It need not get lost in the woods for simple anti-discrimination policies to occur, but at same time, if not pondering the philosophical challenge, then the emotional one is saying all places where males and females felt comfortable understanding that no one from the opposite sex was allowed, that is now off the table. The comfort part is not off the table, but that's not how the emotional side will filter it. The idea of separating people along lines of gender identification is, or could be, off the table. I think that would ultimately be a good thing. I think for us to all get there as a society could take a really long time, or could go very swiftly. I have doubts that this is what many transexuals are even going for, and are instead just asking to not be faced with hateful, ugly discrimination when they go about their daily lives.

On what basis do you believe that the creation of unisex bathrooms would lead to more harm to transexuals ( even in short term ) than the situation we have as of now ?

 

[SkylarHunter]

Once someone has transitioned - boy or girl - where should they pee? Where should they change?

In my opinion if they have already transitioned they can use the bathroom/ locker room corresponding the current gender.

 

[Mindmaster]

On what basis do you believe that the creation of unisex bathrooms would lead to more harm to transexuals ( even in short term ) than the situation we have as of now ?

I think this is the intended response via the government officials because this is the logical conclusion of the decision. I mean, if you look at other civil rights movements it was a gradual change with leaders like MLK taking a great deal of time trying to bridge the gaps in a peaceful and educational way. Lasting changes have to be grown within the minds of people over time, and my fear is that this is just too damn early. We haven't had the discussions we need to have, etc. It wouldn't be the first time the government caused outrage to assault an "undesirable" class of people.

 

[Mindmaster]

In my opinion if they have already transitioned they can use the bathroom/ locker room corresponding the current gender.

I'm pretty sure we don't know what bathroom they are using right now, so the whole issue is a distraction. It just makes me wonder what illegal crap they're trying to do now, lol.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I mean, if you look at other civil rights movements it was a gradual change with leaders like MLK taking a great deal of time trying to bridge the gaps in a peaceful and educational way.

That's a joke, right? There were widespread riots and murders all throughout the Civil Rights movement era. It was an extremely violent time.

 

[Mindmaster]

Spoiler

@Mindmaster

​

People fail to realize how often art is a complete parody of reality. They will jump up and down doing a victory dance and the next day realize they are living in a totalitarian regime, because that's what happens when you tell people how to think.

 

[Scott C.]

I confess that until yesterday I found the discussion of who gets to use the bathroom rather silly. I couldn’t understand how a country that is drowning in debt and has so many other issues to worry about would waste any time and energy talking about such a thing. In Europe that’s not even a subject.

However, yesterday I saw in the news that Obama passed a law saying that schools must allow trans student to use the bathrooms and locker rooms that match their gender identity, and universities should do the same when it comes to sex-segregated campus housing.

Now, that made me look at it in a different way.

I don’t have children, but I imagined for a moment that I had a daughter and that she came home and said “mom, today I changed in front of a boy in the locker room but it’s okay because he thinks he’s a girl.” If this happened to me I would totally freak out.

When did the feelings of a confused boy become more important than the privacy and dignity of all girls at school?

The way I see it, if a trans student has changed gender (as in, has had surgery) and said student has an id card stating the new gender, then that person should be allowed in the bathroom of their gender. No one goes through the ordeal of hormonal treatment + surgery if they are not serious about it.

If students get to decide in their heads their gender identity of the month and all other students have to suck it up, that is abuse.

I don’t believe a girl who thinks she’s a boy would go into the boys locker room because she knows they will bully her and possibly assault her so she’ll stay away. The problem is the other way around. Allowing a boy who thinks he’s a girl (or who pretends to because that might seem fun to him) into the girl’s bathrooms and locker rooms is a violation of the dignity and privacy of those girls.

All of you out there who have daughters, are you comfortable with this? Are you ok with the fact that your little girl has to change her clothes in front of a boy even if she doesn’t want to because it’s the law? Would you be happy to have your teenage daughter using the toilet right next to a boy?

I know I wouldn't have been happy about this when I was at school and I'm glad I never had to endure such a thing.

I agree with you. While I've tried to ignore this issue and I've tried to be open minded, this Obama edict is ridiculous. We can't allow 14 year old boys into the girls locker room. Trust me I used to be 14. That's every boy's dream. And if you think I was an abnormal 14 year old, you're living on a different planet.

I don't know where I come down on every detail of this bathroom debate. It's confusing. But I'm clear on one thing. If you have a penis, you're not going into a locker room with naked girls under the age of 18, unless perhaps you're 4 years old and with your mother. This is getting so, so bizarre.

 

[Scott C.]

You argue that trans girls shouldn't change with the other girls; does this mean you support trans boys changing with girls and trans girls changing with boys? Do you think this will cause more or fewer problems than the approach you're objecting to?

If you've gone to the trouble of having your penis removed, then go to the girls locker room. I guess that makes more sense than showing up in the boys locker room minus your part.

By the way, are there parents who actually allow their underage children to have sex change operations? Good grief. I know people who complain about parents who let their kids join a church when they're under 18.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People fail to realize how often art is a complete parody of reality. They will jump up and down doing a victory dance and the next day realize they are living in a totalitarian regime, because that's what happens when you tell people how to think.

No one is being told how to think. The only thing that has been said is that transsexuals will be allowed to use the restroom appropriate for their gender. Big ****in' whoop! It's great and wonderful news if it's something that actually does effect your life in a very personal matter and puts the law firmly behind you when you go about doing what you should be allowed to do anyways, but, for everybody else, they can get themselves. If you replaced the gender with race, no one would even tolerate your argument that the government not move to end discrimination like this, and that's a slippery slope towards totalitarianism. When the Supreme Court ruled to legalize same-sex marriage, it had popular support as "about time these rights be extended towards this minority group." We don't even seem to mind that the New England states nagged and whined until they got enough of the colonies to support succession, and even then many thought it was a huge over-step and too much power by one day, but we treasure that as a moment worthy of Biblical entry. But with this issue, not only do you have the fear-mongers coming out of the woodwork to spew their venom, and you also have the heard of "big gub'mint" spraying foam from their mouth. The Englightment thinkers who planted the seeds that were reaped when this country was born, the state should exist to protect rights, and protect minorities from the majority, not allow legal discrimination to trample the minority. We just so happen to live in a time where more people feel safe and comfortable coming out of the closet. It shouldn't be tolerated in any liberal secular society that any minority gets trampled because the majority has a problem with them. Transsexuals themselves do not cause any harm, thus their rights should not be infringed. Anyone who is crying harm and foul are the ones creating the issue. If someone's very existence and presence offends you, especially when they have not harmed you or others, then you yourself are probably not a good person. And because tradition is nothing more than the dead holding power over the living, even when science has weighted in on the issue, there is just no valid reason or excuse why any forms of legally sanctioned discrimination should ever be tolerated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree with you. While I've tried to ignore this issue and I've tried to be open minded, this Obama edict is ridiculous. We can't allow 14 year old boys into the girls locker room. Trust me I used to be 14. That's every boy's dream. And if you think I was an abnormal 14 year old, you're living on a different planet.

I don't know where I come down on every detail of this bathroom debate. It's confusing. But I'm clear on one thing. If you have a penis, you're not going into a locker room with naked girls under the age of 18, unless perhaps you're 4 years old and with your mother. This is getting so, so bizarre.

Trans girls are not boys, so stop judging them by how you think boys act. They are not boys.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop portraying everyone who happens to have a penis as being some sex-crazed pervert who can't control themselves in mixed company. That says more about you than it does about any other male.

If you've gone to the trouble of having your penis removed, then go to the girls locker room. I guess that makes more sense than showing up in the boys locker room minus your part.

Not everyone has thousands of dollars in disposable income to afford genital surgery. Not all of us necessarily desire it, either.

By the way, are there parents who actually allow their underage children to have sex change operations? Good grief. I know people who complain about parents who let their kids join a church when they're under 18.

There are a small number of transsexuals who have had genital surgery before 18, but that's very difficult to get approval for and they've all been European to my knowledge.

 

[Aquitaine]

The issue isn't even about trans here, it's about wannabe kings and queens. It's about taking away our rights and giving us absolutely no choice.

I didn't realise you had a constitutional right to not share a public changing room with a trans.

 

[Brian Schuh]

Everyone is so concerned over women and children being raped and rightfully so. Some of these transexuals look like natural born women and are hot! Anyone ever consider that they could be raped if they must go to the men's room? What makes a woman or child more important than a trans? All men (and women and children) are created equal. That's always the guiding principle when talking about discrimination.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Everyone is so concerned over women and children being raped and rightfully so.

It isn't really rightfully so because it does considerable harm to men that are raped. It's bad enough when a woman or child has to go through with it, but when a man is raped he faces the stigmas attached to a man being raped.

 

[Mindmaster]

I didn't realise you had a constitutional right to not share a public changing room with a trans.

Actually, you do. It's called the First Amendment.

There are several cases where this is would fall into use but it states that Congress cannot compel you to live in a way that is at odds with your religious or moral views. To do that requires Congress to specifically pass laws which address the case. It's hard to argue discrimination about bathrooms because no one is prohibiting you do use the restroom, but rather they might be asking you to use the one you do not like. Basically, by forcing people to support unisex bathrooms you are forcing something on them that might be against their beliefs. The government actually doesn't have the power to do this. Discrimination laws only apply to voting and employment as a rule, and even if it was extended to something else no one is denying you a bathroom just the one you want. Your first amendment protection ends at the point where it infringes on others, so yea.. don't even walk that slope. You don't have a right to violate other people's first amendment protections to foist your views on them.

Now, we're not out of the woods yet... The 14th amendment specifically forbids states to make laws that deny privileges to citizens that other citizens have. So, while you can't make laws against certain types of folks there is nothing saying or addressing the case where the 1st supports an idea. Thus, left to very vague and natural interpretation people can ask you to leave the store, or school if they find you in the wrong bathroom and ask you to never come back. Basically, North Carolina is fighting a battle they can't win as the state doesn't have the power to make these laws. The 14th amendment is against them in every way, and it's basically a done deal.

Even though the state is forbidden to make a rule like this the school administrations are not. (Since they are policies, not laws...) They can decide only same-sex bathrooms because they aren't denying any use. There are bathrooms for both sexes, so again there is nothing protecting your preference here either. Work, jobs, public places, etc can do what they want with this as long as there are "bathrooms for everyone" there are no problems according to any law or amendment. Schools can also ask you to leave if you won't follow the rules just like every other and punish you for being in the wrong bathroom. They basically have home rule on this kind of stuff, and there is nothing really that is going to change that.