A legal violation of student's dignity and privacy

[Mindmaster]

Everyone is so concerned over women and children being raped and rightfully so. Some of these transexuals look like natural born women and are hot! Anyone ever consider that they could be raped if they must go to the men's room? What makes a woman or child more important than a trans? All men (and women and children) are created equal. That's always the guiding principle when talking about discrimination.

Discrimination isn't even happening here, and even if it were it's not against the law to discriminate it is only against the law to discriminate in voting and employment. It's also against the law for states to draft laws that cause discrimination, but other than that the US Constitution lets you do as much discriminating as you want.

I don't think your preferences being offended equates to discrimination in any case. You aren't discriminated against because you don't have the job you want, for example, unless you can prove that it was age, sex, race, etc... This is just not the same case, and people are weaseling the meaning of the word to fit their agenda because they're probably under-educated.

 

[Brian Schuh]

Discrimination isn't even happening here, and even if it were it's not against the law to discriminate it is only against the law to discriminate in voting and employment. It's also against the law for states to draft laws that cause discrimination, but other than that the US Constitution lets you do as much discriminating as you want.

I don't think your preferences being offended equates to discrimination in any case. You aren't discriminated against because you don't have the job you want, for example, unless you can prove that it was age, sex, race, etc... This is just not the same case, and people are weaseling the meaning of the word to fit their agenda because they're probably under-educated.

Thank you for clarifying that. However, certain kinds of discrimination in places of education are unlawful and improper. Exception would be a school that doesn't accept federal funding. Like the Aryan Brotherhood could hypothetically run a school for white men but without government funding.

I am unclear on this, medical facilities can't discriminate on sexual preference or gender identity, and some states employers and landlords can't either. What of public schools? Is it not unlawful to discriminate on sexual preference and gender identity in federally funded schools?

 

[Mindmaster]

I am unclear on this, medical facilities can't discriminate on sexual preference or gender identity, and some states employers and landlords can't either. What of public schools? Is it not unlawful to discriminate on sexual preference and gender identity in federally funded schools?

There are specific laws that deal with these cases that were passed that address these one-off cases like the Fair Housing Act. Medical facilities can set whatever policies they want, but they are governed by acts related to employment like anyone else. Public schools are home rule mostly, and can set any rules that do not specifically conflict with state statutes or federal law. Policies are not laws and it important to understand having a policy doesn't break certain laws in most cases. Businesses can enforce a policy as a condition of employment in most cases because they hire and fire at will in most states in the USA, they don't actually need reasons.

Where there funding comes from is probably irrelevant, because again it's hard to say this is discrimination. It's more like preference, and the laws regarding discrimination don't specifically address it nor would policies of the same.

 

[Scott C.]

Trans girls are not boys, so stop judging them by how you think boys act. They are not boys.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop portraying everyone who happens to have a penis as being some sex-crazed pervert who can't control themselves in mixed company. That says more about you than it does about any other male.

I'm not talking about trans girls. I'm talking about boys who are all boy, who are 14 and who have heterosexual hormones. It is 100% natural and normal for such a boy to get excited at the thought of showering with a 14 year old girl. That is not perverted nor is it sex crazed. It's called a sex drive. It's what makes the world go round. This sex drive needs to be controlled. We establish limits. We don't allow junior high school boys and girls to shower together. This is common sense. Society has known this for a long, long time. Why some suddenly question the need or the wisdom is beyond me.

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

 

[fantome profane]

I'm not talking about trans girls. I'm talking about boys who are all boy, who are 14 and who have heterosexual hormones. It is 100% natural and normal for such a boy to get excited at the thought of showering with a 14 year old girl. That is not perverted nor is it sex crazed. It's called a sex drive. It's what makes the world go round. This sex drive needs to be controlled. We establish limits. We don't allow junior high school boys and girls to shower together. This is common sense. Society has known this for a long, long time. Why some suddenly question the need or the wisdom is beyond me.

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

So when you were a fourteen year old boy you would have had no problem declaring to all your friends and classmates that you were a transsexual? Really? Tell me that. Go ahead.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not talking about trans girls. I'm talking about boys who are all boy, who are 14 and who have heterosexual hormones. It is 100% natural and normal for such a boy to get excited at the thought of showering with a 14 year old girl. That is not perverted nor is it sex crazed. It's called a sex drive. It's what makes the world go round. This sex drive needs to be controlled. We establish limits. We don't allow junior high school boys and girls to shower together. This is common sense. Society has known this for a long, long time. Why some suddenly question the need or the wisdom is beyond me.

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

I can't say I understand this moral panic over penises in the first place, which is being perpetuated by men from the start. I don't know why men want to present themselves as being such a danger. Hetero men have some real issues, is all I can say. (Yes, it's really saying something about some issues men have about themselves and nothing about trans girls/women.)

 

[Scott C.]

So when you were a fourteen year old boy you would have had no problem declaring to all your friends and classmates that you were a transsexual? Really? Tell me that. Go ahead.

It would be more difficult that I can imagine. Trust me my heart goes out to anyone who has gender issues like this.

 

[Scott C.]

I can't say I understand this moral panic over penises in the first place, which is being perpetuated by men from the start. I don't know why men want to present themselves as being such a danger. Hetero men have some real issues, is all I can say. (Yes, it's really saying something about some issues men have about themselves and nothing about trans girls/women.)

It's a mistake to try to make the case for accommodation and compassion for transsexuals by accusing heterosexual non-trans gender people of being sexual deviants.

Again, I don't want to offend trans genders. I feel for them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's a mistake to try to make the case for accommodation and compassion for transsexuals by accusing heterosexual non-trans gender people of being sexual deviants.

Again, I don't want to offend trans genders. I feel for them.

You're the ones accusing yourselves of being that, really, which is what I was saying. Trans people didn't start pushing the myth of people with penises using the restroom being some terrifying danger to women. Straight cis people did. So we're not the ones who need to do some self-reflection here.

 

[Mindmaster]

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

This problem is more complicated than the social justice warriors would like to admit. The trans-girl still has a penis and who says just because they are trans they aren't sexually attracted to women? So, this is basically putting a teenage boy in a room full of girls and there are reasons which just come down to common sense that we don't do this. Yes, there are women who like women but there is a massive strength/size ratio problem when you are talking about the other thing. Also, who knows if they are lying about it? There are tons of questions and no one is answering the important ones they are just trying to stuff their ideas other people without any regard for safety or other rational concern. Idealism is just that, but when you get to the brass tacks and figure out how this goes to together it doesn't look pretty.

 

[Brian Schuh]

This problem is more complicated than the social justice warriors would like to admit. The trans-girl still has a penis and who says just because they are trans they aren't sexually attracted to women? So, this is basically putting a teenage boy in a room full of girls and there are reasons which just come down to common sense that we don't do this. Yes, there are women who like women but there is a massive strength/size ratio problem when you are talking about the other thing. Also, who knows if they are lying about it? There are tons of questions and no one is answering the important ones they are just trying to stuff their ideas other people without any regard for safety or other rational concern. Idealism is just that, but when you get to the brass tacks and figure out how this goes to together it doesn't look pretty.

The US Dept. of Justice several years ago stepped in involving a case in a school in California. A student classified as female insists she is a boy, and always did from the time she could speak. Obviously not a classic transgender. This girl from birth, it seems, identified as a boy. The Dept. of Justice demanded the school modify the boy's room to accommodate a girl. Very unusual and worth mentioning. Maybe she was a "fixed" hermaphodite. I don't know.

 

[Scott C.]

You're the ones accusing yourselves of being that, really, which is what I was saying. Trans people didn't start pushing the myth of people with penises using the restroom being some terrifying danger to women. Straight cis people did. So we're not the ones who need to do some self-reflection here.

I didn't say anything about restrooms or toilets or adults. I specifically limited my comments to the notion of having a policy that would allow underage minors of mixed gender to shower together. Because of the natural human sex drive, with no perverts involved, this is a terrible idea. That statement has nothing to do with trans genders. But whatever we decide about trans genders, it's a mistake to ignore this reality.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I didn't say anything about restrooms or toilets or adults. I specifically limited my comments to the notion of having a policy that would allow underage minors of mixed gender to shower together. Because of the natural human sex drive, with no perverts involved, this is a terrible idea. That statement has nothing to do with trans genders. But whatever we decide about trans genders, it's a mistake to ignore this reality.

I see it as irrelevant, because lesbians and bisexual girls/women aren't separated from other girls/women in those situations. So who cares if they find the other people attractive.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I was at a mixed (gay and straight) coffee bar many years ago, and outside the restroom a guy felt my ***. It made me uncomfortable and angry. I left. I imagine I felt the same way a woman would feel, since all people have the same feelings, whether male or female, gay lesbian, straight or bi, all people have more in common than differences. There is no way to avoid this. I learned quick not to take free drinks from someone I would not have sex with. There is an unwritten understanding- if you take alcohol from a stranger, you are up for sex. Which is nonsense, but the way it is. Trans people have feelings the same as me or you. Activities in public restrooms are uncomfortable by their nature. Hell, my private bathroom can be uncomfortable, especially when I have guests. Bottomline, trans people are uncomfortable to start because of stereotypes and prejudice. And who is to say women are more important than a trans person? We are all uncomfortable in public restrooms, get over it.

 

[Scott C.]

I see it as irrelevant, because lesbians and bisexual girls/women aren't separated from other girls/women in those situations. So who cares if they find the other people attractive.

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. Imagine we lived in a world with no gays or lesbians or bi-sexuals or trans genders. In that world, are you suggesting that there are no valid reasons based in morality or modesty or privacy, etc. to segregate high school locker rooms by gender? If your answer is "yes, there are no good reasons", then you are way off the norm in the USA. You won't win support for accommodating trans genders if this is your argument.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Ted Cruz. I want to smack him when I see his smug face talking about these issues. I consider myself to be rational. Youth are incredibly vulnerable to all kinds of emotions and disorders and insecurities and bullying and depression and we must have compassion and be on the lookout for those young people who desperately need our help. We mustn't jump up and down and scream that they are freaks are are ruining our toilets and showers. They aren't freaks. They are human beings with dignity who deserve love and respect.

But when you tell me that I should accept all liberal proposals for restrooms and locker rooms, even at the middle school and high school level, and then tell me that the notion that heterosexual boys should be segregated from heterosexual girls is outdated, useless, and based on some kind of penis paranoia and fear of male sexual deviance, you lose me. You become an extremist, as much as is Ted Cruz.

So how can we work this out with reason and mutual respect?

 

[suncowiam]

I'm not talking about trans girls. I'm talking about boys who are all boy, who are 14 and who have heterosexual hormones. It is 100% natural and normal for such a boy to get excited at the thought of showering with a 14 year old girl. That is not perverted nor is it sex crazed. It's called a sex drive. It's what makes the world go round. This sex drive needs to be controlled. We establish limits. We don't allow junior high school boys and girls to shower together. This is common sense. Society has known this for a long, long time. Why some suddenly question the need or the wisdom is beyond me.

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

I actually agree with you given my history of secretly disagreeing with you on many topics. LOL! But then it always seemed that your church was speaking for you. I never knew what was your ideal versus your religion's. I'm just speaking frankly and honestly.

I get it that folks are uncomfortable with this but the extreme reaction of comparing transgendered to perverts is just far-fetched. Not saying you implied this but I think you hit it straight on with your comments. People will feel uncomfortable with the opposite sex in their own bathrooms. Given the "cultural norms" presented from birth, it just simply will take time for acceptance and understanding to grow. I personally do understand that people use the restroom just to use the restroom. And the argument of a boy with a sexual drive in a girls changing room is then offset by a homosexual boy with a sex drive in his own gender room. The former case was illegal. The current case is not but presents the same exact issue so the laws prior or present haven't solved anything. There will also be sexual attraction from heterosexual folks because the scale of hetero to homosexual is not 0 and 10. Heck, I know enough bisexuals to assert this. The laws are just liberal and conservative politicians banking on fear and anger.

Let me emphasize, that the difference between a pervert and a non-pervert, is his/her ability to control his emotions and drive. A non-pervert will act civilized in any given situation. I think some more faith is needed here that people, no matter their personal differences will behave with decency and respect. These laws, past or present, do not filter out perverts at all. That has to be done on a case by case and with a microscope to ensure that a pervert has been caught.

I can only see having a third neutral place of privacy to solve this issue. I just don't see it as cost effective but I would vote for it if it came up so folks can go whine about other things. Let's get back to whining about gun control or global warming!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. Imagine we lived in a world with no gays or lesbians or bi-sexuals or trans genders. In that world, are you suggesting that there are no valid reasons based in morality or modesty or privacy, etc. to segregate high school locker rooms by gender? If your answer is "yes, there are no good reasons", then you are way off the norm in the USA. You won't win support for accommodating trans genders if this is your argument.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Ted Cruz. I want to smack him when I see his smug face talking about these issues. I consider myself to be rational. Youth are incredibly vulnerable to all kinds of emotions and disorders and insecurities and bullying and depression and we must have compassion and be on the lookout for those young people who desperately need our help. We mustn't jump up and down and scream that they are freaks are are ruining our toilets and showers. They aren't freaks. They are human beings with dignity who deserve love and respect.

But when you tell me that I should accept all liberal proposals for restrooms and locker rooms, even at the middle school and high school level, and then tell me that the notion that heterosexual boys should be segregated from heterosexual girls is outdated, useless, and based on some kind of penis paranoia and fear of male sexual deviance, you lose me. You become an extremist, as much as is Ted Cruz.

So how can we work this out with reason and mutual respect?

We're talking about trans girls using the appropriate facilities, not "heterosexual boys". Trans girls are not boys. As long as you keep conflating the two, we'll never be able to communicate effectively, let alone come to any agreement. No one is saying that straight boys should be using the girl's room. Why don't you get on topic?

 

[Brian Schuh]

We're talking about trans girls using the appropriate facilities, not "heterosexual boys". Trans girls are not boys. As long as you keep conflating the two, we'll never be able to communicate effectively, let alone come to any agreement. No one is saying that straight boys should be using the girl's room. Why don't you get on topic?

I met one transexual that deserves comment, in a psych unit. A trans woman who was exclusively attracted to women, right- a lesbian. And (s)he had a girlfriend. Lost all male organs except prostate. Started off a heterosexual male and became a lesbian. Honest to God, I'm not making this up. I'm the same way, just never had any alterations and never will. It gives new meaning to the old joke, a lesbian in a male body. And I don't need a strap on dildo, but have a natural penus. SRS, sexual reassignment surgeries do no good for a heterosexual transgender. In the case above, a mistake was made. And to complicate matters, I also have same sex attraction.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I met one transexual that deserves comment, in a psych unit. A trans woman who was exclusively attracted to women, right- a lesbian. And (s)he had a girlfriend. Lost all male organs except prostate. Started off a heterosexual male and became a lesbian. Honest to God, I'm not making this up. I'm the same way, just never had any alterations and never will. It gives new meaning to the old joke, a lesbian in a male body. And I don't need a strap on dildo, but have a natural penus. SRS, sexual reassignment surgeries do no good for a heterosexual transgender. In the case above, a mistake was made. And to complicate matters, I also have same sex attraction.

I can't really comment on yours or her's situation because I don't know either of you. I don't see what SRS has to do with it. This is something you should be talking to a therapist about. You seem a bit confused.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There are several cases where this is would fall into use but it states that Congress cannot compel you to live in a way that is at odds with your religious or moral views.

Yet no one is being forced to live in a way that is at odds with their religion. And there are many laws that already do prohibit certain religious practices, one of which is public discrimination.

It's hard to argue discrimination about bathrooms because no one is prohibiting you do use the restroom,

That's what this entire bathroom issue is about.

Basically, by forcing people to support unisex bathrooms you are forcing something on them that might be against their beliefs.

The only ones who support those are those who are wanting transsexuals out of the appropriate restroom. Transsexuals tend to use the appropriate restroom, or unisex when there are concerns. Sure some might think it is their religious right to not share public spaces, but the government has already told those sorts to get over themselves numerous times, and we come out better for it.

Discrimination laws only apply to voting and employment as a rule, and even if it was extended to something else no one is denying you a bathroom just the one you want.

There are more than that. Schools that receive federal funds are bound to the laws, promotion considerations, and pretty much any public place or business is bound to those laws.

Your first amendment protection ends at the point where it infringes on others, so yea.. don't even walk that slope.

And the rights of transsexuals--and because people are so afraid even cis-women now--are being infringed.

They can decide only same-sex bathrooms because they aren't denying any use.

They are denying transsexuals the ability and right to use the restroom that is appropriate for them.

Discrimination isn't even happening here,

A minority group is being denied a basic right. That is the very definition of discrimination. It was ruled decades ago that "separate but equal" is not constitutional.

I'm talking about boys who are all boy, who are 14 and who have heterosexual hormones. It is 100% natural and normal for such a boy to get excited at the thought of showering with a 14 year old girl.

That isn't happening though. If the 14 year old starts living as a female, on puberty blocking hormones and/or estrogen, that just is not going to be a boy showing with the girls.

So how do we deal with a trans girl, for example? If the trans girl is still anatomically a boy, she can't shower with the girls. There must be another way to deal with this, while trying to preserve her emotions and psyche. I have no desire to humiliate or persecute such a person.

If you have no desire to humiliate or persecute, then don't make an issue out of. Let us go on with with our lives as we allow you to go on about yours.

The trans-girl still has a penis and who says just because they are trans they aren't sexually attracted to women?

Most transwomen are heterosexual, and we've already had such discussions with homosexuals. You're beating a bloody-pulped carcass of a horse, just throwing a new skin on it.

Started off a heterosexual male and became a lesbian. Honest to God, I'm not making this up.

That's known for happening. Much like cis-women, trans-women are sometimes homosexual, or bisexual, or even asexual.

SRS, sexual reassignment surgeries do no good for a heterosexual transgender.

It's not really yet at a good stage for Female-to-Male transsexuals, but for Male-to-Female transsexuals surgery techniques are to the point that even to a gynecologist the surgery results can look indistinguishable from a post-hysterectomy vagina.