• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

A Letter to Donald Trump

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Your types condemn hunters, attack flags, religion, God, guns and all while you support snuffing the life out of the most vulnerable among human life for sake of convenience.

You don't appear to have read my first post in this thread.
You quoted it, but did not respond to the third paragraph. And now you are mistaking me for "support snuffing....the sake of convenience".
Sorry I am not taking you too seriously. But I am not.

Tom
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I'm all for helping fund sterilization procedures for those below the poverty level. Actually, this should be included in social programs that could be funded by the revenue generated from an incentive tax.

You talking about forced sterilization for poor women only, or do you include poor men? If you sterilize a person wouldn't you be condemning any future children they may have to pre-death?
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
You don't appear to have read my first post in this thread.
You quoted it, but did not respond to the third paragraph. And now you are mistaking me for "support snuffing....the sake of convenience".
Sorry I am not taking you too seriously. But I am not.

Tom


I'm sorry, but what was the subject of your third paragraph? I must have missed it or maybe I'm following suit. Let me ask you this: Do you support abortion not performed out of medical necessity? Snuffing is another term for taking the life of something. If you support convenience abortions, then the comment I made is perfectly valid. If not, my mistake. I should have read your third paragraph or believed it. You don't seem to have a valid argument to counter my proposal, which is likely why you refuse to approach it. If you have no argument, then say so. If you do, then make it.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
You talking about forced sterilization for poor women only, or do you include poor men? If you sterilize a person wouldn't you be condemning any future children they may have to pre-death?

Both genders if they want no children
 

averageJOE

zombie
200.gif
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I love the assertion that people who don't want children should cease and desist from all sexual encounters or face a tax! As usual, it's not about preventing abortions. It's about making certain that women understand their role in society is to incubate the next generation. Le sigh.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
My sister has had a few miscarriages herself, and has been blessed with her first child just three month's ago. I have no power in the medical arena, which is the area that will help would be mothers come to term without miscarrying. I do however have some power and a voice when it comes to national policies, and the laws adopted. We all do to some extent. Awareness also needs to be directed on issues that can be prevented with a bit more ease. Simple solutions are typically more effective than complex.

The power of the political arena can be utilized to help funding and research and assistance to help in miscarriage. There's no reason you couldn't do this, as opposed to using it to penalize women you feel shouldn't get an abortion.

They are vastly different, but many don't make it any easier on themselves and indeed much more difficult simply because they fail to act responsibly. Dude, we all go through hell in life. My struggle is no more or less severe than your own. If you want to list a few things I'll play along. I've lost two homes, family support, valuable trust, many jobs, have been on the disabled list since the year 2000, was a heavy drug abuser for over 15 years. I have been caring for a teenage boy along with my elderly mother whom I watched die while in recovery after a hip replacement surgery, and then resuscitated only to be placed on oxygen 24/7 who likewise suffers from Alzheimers for over 10 years. That's just the tip, but I get by well enough on less that $1000 a month income. I don't use poverty or my challenges as an excuse to justify my bad decisions. I own them. That one half of being responsible. the other half involves accountability.

I don't want to list a few things. When you get pregnant, I'll be find your trials relevant.

Do you? Do you pay taxes to help my family? What tax exactly and how does it apply to them particularly?

Huh? You know how schools are funded correctly? I mean... I don't live in the same state of locale, so such assistance I provide is limited to my income and the distance I am from you, and how much federal assistance your school district has received.

Really? Explain.

A correlative relationship in statistics are when any two numerical factors share any sort of statistical relationship (such as an inverse relationship).

Between women who have abortions, and numerous other imagined and unimagined numbers will correlate. An easy example would be between people who have abortions, and people who are women. There is a direct correlation. So the fact that lower positions on the economic scale inc

Really? Have I given you any reason at all to doubt my sincerity? If so, I'd like an opportunity to defend myself in light of your very serious doubt.

I find it hard to believe that someone who wishes to tax people 5% to 10% of there income because they got an abortion you don't personally agree with, have invested much time into helping people. Poor people don't need to paying more taxes... that's just going to make it harder for people to not be poor.

Try to follow along. With less unwanted pregnancies occurring, there would be less abortions taking place, hence less lives lost. The implementation of incentives that not only encourage more responsible behavior, but require a degree of accountability would help prevent and would help minimize unwanted pregnancies.

Wait. If I was going to get a girl pregnant, and she to have an abortion, but I decided not to because I was going to get taxed 5% (by the way, I would just stop working to not pay the tax) then whose life was saved? How is an fetus's life saved from preventing from having been conceived?

Will it solve the issue? No. Will it help prevent unwanted pregnancies? Yes.

And the evidence that supports this affirmative Yes?

This incentive doesn't attack abortion.

No, just the people who get them.

It encourages more responsible behavior by requiring a degree of accountability from those who don't practice safe and responsible sex. If people are not willing to have a child knowing a pregnancy could occur from their actions, it's terribly irresponsible behavior. That's just the reality of it. When child's life and future is put in the balance just so two people can get their rocks off and simply choose to terminate the pregnancyafter for sake of avoiding accountability, there's a monumental responsibility issue present that needs addressing. That's what I'm doing - Like it or not.

At the end of the day, a woman can have an abortion until the point of viability for any reason she so pleases. It doesn't really matter if you find people irresponsible who don't want to have a kid despite the fact they got pregnant. Can be completely out of leisure. The only person that pays for an abortion or has to deal with any issue is the mother and father, and that's it. So, no there isn't really a monumental responsibility issue that needs to be addressed. People weren't put on this planet to live up to anyone particular notion of responsibility. I think its often irresponsible to have a kid that you clearly can't afford or pay for or emotionally or intellectually give anything to, and simply having a baby because society deems a bad person otherwise. At the end the day, the only person whose call it is is the person actually gestating the thing for 9 months, and to a significant but lesser extent, the person who put the stuff there in the first place.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Take in a bit of tax money over these "convenience" abortions, spend even more than what is taken in having people investigating which ones were "convenient" or not.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Ya think? To provide an example: $75 would be deducted from those having a monthly income of $1,500. If all you bring in is $80 per month then your deduction would be $4. If all you bring in is $100 your deduction would be $5. If you bring in $1000 your deduction would be $50. You get the picture. Minimal hit on the wallet, still able to encourage greater responsibility.

What and where do you think the extra tax money will go to?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
If a couple is completely unwilling to have a child and have sex that could result in an unwanted pregnancy, it's terribly irresponsible on their part to do so. While I know abstinence is not a well liked method of pregnancy (birth) control, it is full proof. We can not force abstinence, we can not force the use of birth control, we can not force a woman to endure an unwanted pregnancy. What CAN be done is initiate an incentive tax to help encourage more responsible behavior by all parties. - This is not a reward tax. It's an incentive tax. We're not rewarding nor are we punishing, but implementing an incentive to help encourage greater responsibility. Yes, condoms do break, the pill isn't 100%, diaphragms are not 100%, and spermicides aren't always effective either. However, combine two or more methods and the risk of pregnancy decreases exponentially. The pill and the use of a condom for example could be a potential combination. The pill and a spermicide another. There are many combinations that could be utilized. It comes down to making a responsible choice. If that choice results in an unwanted pregnancy and they are absolutely unwilling to have the child, the tax incentive should be applied regardless of contraceptive utilized.
Now, this is unreasonable. Expecting adults who don't want children to abstain from all sexual activity if there is a small chance that pregnancy could occur is utterly ridiculous. I was incorrectly assuming (my fault, because you did not express this) that taking certain reasonable precautions would make one remain eligible for the tax reward. If not, you would literally be forcing obvious subjective morality on the nation via monetary reward funded by a majority who disagree with the notion that "abstinence is the only option if you don't want kids". No offense, but welcome to the 90's bro.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
You don't seem to have a valid argument to counter my proposal, which is likely why you refuse to approach it. If you have no argument, then say so. If you do, then make it.

It's so simple it is hard to imagine not seeing it right off.

People having unsafe irresponsible sex aren't thinking about the long term ramifications.

Threatening them with a permanent fine of $10 a week is not going to have any noticeable impact. Especially among people who don't take responsibility for anything anyway. You just aren't talking about people who will consider the costs if they are not immediate, and maybe not even then.

Think about it this way. Your 850,000 per year number seems reasonable. What that means is that out of approximately every 400 USonians, 1 got an elective abortion in the last year. They are among the one quarter of one percent least responsible people in this country. They are not going to change their behavior much over a 5% annual fine, as a general rule. Lots will just quit their jobs.

People are not all that rational. Especially horny ones.
Tom
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
I love the assertion that people who don't want children should cease and desist from all sexual encounters or face a tax! As usual, it's not about preventing abortions. It's about making certain that women understand their role in society is to incubate the next generation. Le sigh.

That's not what was said but you are well aware of this. If you're going to engage me, at least be honest when you make an attempt to address the views I've presented. The assertion made is that those who are unwilling to have children should be responsible and held accountable for an unwanted pregnancy occurring as a result of their actions. Unwanted pregnancies can be prevented by taking more thorough precautions. That's a fact. It's terribly irresponsible to be completely unwilling to have children and still engage in behavior that results in an unwanted pregnancy. It is irresponsible as well as unbelievably selfish behavior when a human life must be terminated for sake of something as petty as two people getting off.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
The power of the political arena can be utilized to help funding and research and assistance to help in miscarriage. There's no reason you couldn't do this, as opposed to using it to penalize women you feel shouldn't get an abortion.

I prefer to address the root cause of the estimated 850,000 contract killings that are performed in this nation annually for convenience purposes. These procedures are unnecessary and could be prevented by very simple modifications in personal behavior. This would not be a penalty for abortion, but an incentive to help encourage responsibility to help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.



I don't want to list a few things. When you get pregnant, I'll be find your trials relevant.


You already did list a few things - If you were at all concerned about unwanted pregnancy, you would advocate prevention instead of advocating abortion as a method of birth control


Huh? You know how schools are funded correctly? I mean... I don't live in the same state of locale, so such assistance I provide is limited to my income and the distance I am from you, and how much federal assistance your school district has received.


I asked how your taxes help fund my family and you bring up schools. My teen son will be attending the university after summer break, which is all but here already. He's 18 but that is beside the point isn't it? I don't recall your tax dollars ever being used to fund anything in my local area. If you are going to make a statement like that, then you need to back it up with relevant data.


A correlative relationship in statistics are when any two numerical factors share any sort of statistical relationship (such as an inverse relationship).


Between women who have abortions, and numerous other imagined and unimagined numbers will correlate. An easy example would be between people who have abortions, and people who are women. There is a direct correlation. So the fact that lower positions on the economic scale inc


This is relevant how exactly?


I find it hard to believe that someone who wishes to tax people 5% to 10% of there income because they got an abortion you don't personally agree with, have invested much time into helping people. Poor people don't need to paying more taxes... that's just going to make it harder for people to not be poor.


I'm not concerned with preventing abortion nor am I advocating taxing them. I'm rather concerned with the prevention of unwanted pregnancies. Unwanted pregnancies result in an estimated 850,000 human lives being terminated annually, which you don't seem to care about. Prevent unwanted pregnancies and many lives will be saved. You advocate killing unborn human lives. I advocate prevention of unwanted pregnancies. I support a woman's right to choose, but I likewise acknowledge the root cause of abortion itself.


Wait. If I was going to get a girl pregnant, and she to have an abortion, but I decided not to because I was going to get taxed 5% (by the way, I would just stop working to not pay the tax) then whose life was saved? How is an fetus's life saved from preventing from having been conceived?

That's why this doesn't address abortion, or saving lives directly. This incentive is to help encourage responsible behavior before an unwanted pregnancy occurs at all. . After the fact, I'd suggest some accountability to be accepted by both parties involved. It was an irresponsible choice made by both parties that a pregnancy occurred after all. This incentive would be applied based on actions so irresponsible that a human life is terminated.


And the evidence that supports this affirmative Yes?


It would help, not solve. It would encourage, not fix. This thread alone illustrates how much more value is placed on the wallet than on unborn human lives. Threaten the wallet and the result will be encouragement and an avoidance of the tax. It's far easier to focus on prevention than to quit working (as you said you would do) in attempt to evade. Tax evasion is far more difficult than being responsible before a pregnancy occurs. Of course some will likely thumb their nose at such a noble attempt to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Others, however, will start making more responsible decisions. Not everyone has the luxury of not working like you, so it would be imperative for them to practice more responsible behavior to avoid being taxed for life for something that is easily modified and fixed by them.



No, just the people who get them.


If you're suggesting that only those who choose to abort are to be taxed you are correct. This isn't an attack, however. It is simply a tax initiative to help encourage responsible behavior. It's too late after a pregnancy occurs, which is why the focus is placed on the prevention of unwanted pregnancy and responsibility .


At the end of the day, a woman can have an abortion until the point of viability for any reason she so pleases. It doesn't really matter if you find people irresponsible who don't want to have a kid despite the fact they got pregnant. Can be completely out of leisure. The only person that pays for an abortion or has to deal with any issue is the mother and father, and that's it. So, no there isn't really a monumental responsibility issue that needs to be addressed. People weren't put on this planet to live up to anyone particular notion of responsibility. I think its often irresponsible to have a kid that you clearly can't afford or pay for or emotionally or intellectually give anything to, and simply having a baby because society deems a bad person otherwise. At the end the day, the only person whose call it is is the person actually gestating the thing for 9 months, and to a significant but lesser extent, the person who put the stuff there in the first place.


You're are correct for the most part, but given that there are an estimated 850,000 unwanted pregnancies that end in convenience abortions annually in this nation there most certainly is an issue of responsibility that needs addressing. Choice remains a personal decision, but the tax would help encourage more responsible behavior by both genders once implemented.
 
Last edited:

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Take in a bit of tax money over these "convenience" abortions, spend even more than what is taken in having people investigating which ones were "convenient" or not.

No investigation would be required. Either abortion is a medical necessity or it is not. The only investigations that could possibly be required are in the cases of those who claim rape, which very few will actually do deceptively. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you're grasping at straws with that one.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Now, this is unreasonable. Expecting adults who don't want children to abstain from all sexual activity if there is a small chance that pregnancy could occur is utterly ridiculous. I was incorrectly assuming (my fault, because you did not express this) that taking certain reasonable precautions would make one remain eligible for the tax reward. If not, you would literally be forcing obvious subjective morality on the nation via monetary reward funded by a majority who disagree with the notion that "abstinence is the only option if you don't want kids". No offense, but welcome to the 90's bro.


I don't expect abstinence at all. I stated as much, so quit misrepresenting my stance. It's simply a factual reality that it is irresponsible to have vaginal sex when unwilling to have a child when an unwanted pregnancy would result in the termination of a human life. You have choices in life. We all do. When our choices are responsible for human life, a greater need for responsibility is paramount.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
It's so simple it is hard to imagine not seeing it right off.

People having unsafe irresponsible sex aren't thinking about the long term ramifications.

Threatening them with a permanent fine of $10 a week is not going to have any noticeable impact. Especially among people who don't take responsibility for anything anyway. You just aren't talking about people who will consider the costs if they are not immediate, and maybe not even then.

Think about it this way. Your 850,000 per year number seems reasonable. What that means is that out of approximately every 400 USonians, 1 got an elective abortion in the last year. They are among the one quarter of one percent least responsible people in this country. They are not going to change their behavior much over a 5% annual fine, as a general rule. Lots will just quit their jobs.

People are not all that rational. Especially horny ones.
Tom

You're suggesting that people are so resistant to being responsible and to being subjected to a 5% incentive tax that instead of acting more responsibly, they'd prefer to sabotage their entire lives, quit their jobs, live in greater poverty, and endure far greater hardship just to avoid making responsible decisions? You're are suggesting this incentive would be counter productive and this nations citizens are hell bent on irresponsible behavior. I'm sorry, but I have far greater faith in this nations citizens to think there are very many who are so resistant to responsible behavior that they would sabotage their own lives and willfully take on far greater hardship just to spite the system and avoid responsibility.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
You're are suggesting this incentive would be counter productive and this nations citizens are hell bent on irresponsible behavior.

We are not talking about everyone. We are talking about the small percentage who are irresponsible.

Consider your own story. How many irresponsible, self destructive, choices did you make? Would a vague threat of future deductions from your tax refund have stopped you?

If you think this plan of yours will noticeably affect the sexual behavior of the group we're talking about you don't know much about your fellow citizens.
Tom
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
We are not talking about everyone. We are talking about the small percentage who are irresponsible.

Consider your own story. How many irresponsible, self destructive, choices did you make? Would a vague threat of future deductions from your tax refund have stopped you?

If you think this plan of yours will noticeably affect the sexual behavior of the group we're talking about you don't know much about your fellow citizens.
Tom


I'd suggest an even smaller percentage of this nations citizens would fit the mold you presented. A far greater percentage would benefit. There are many in this nation who would factor in the costs of this incentive. A lot more than I think you're willing to admit. Perhaps it would be less than I anticipate, but certainly more than what you suggest.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
The potential of being burdened with a tax wouldn't help encourage you as a parent to educate your children on safer sexual practices.
Correct, because:

Lifetime accountability obligations brought on by a pregnancy wouldn't help encourage you to encourage greater responsibility from your kids regardless of whether the pregnancy was terminated or not .
I don't know where you got that idea: the lifetime effect of a pregnancy (whether terminated or not) is *exactly* why I have encouraged responsibility from my children. This is far more important a consideration than "the government's going to take an extra x% of your income if you have an abortion".

Fine. You don't think this incentive would have much effect on the decisions people make in relation to sexual activity. O.K. I'll take you at your word. I have my doubts, but I won't argue the point. The objective to help encourage greater responsibility through lifetime accountability measures would most assuredly have impact on responsible behavior in many people. Particularly those who this tax would hit the hardest (the poor) which is the majority of those who end up choosing to abort. Also, the tax system isn't all that blunt actually. It's fairly specific. Social change isn't exactly the objective aimed for either, but rather personal responsibility. A lifetime tax deduction per check that increases as your wages increase would spur more responsible behavior in many many cases. Maybe not in everyone, but certainly many.
Something makes me feel that you *really* don't understand people. ISTM that the "many" people it will have most effect upon are those who spend so much time thinking about their tax bill, they can't get laid anyway.
 
Top