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A Letter to Donald Trump

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
You might be having the same misunderstanding as I did. If you prevent someone who was going to get an abortion from conceiving a baby, you have somehow saved that babies life. I've arguably saved more fetuses than anyone, since I've yet to get one person unintentionally pregnant.

The logic follows the premise that if a baby is conceived and terminated, an unborn human life will have been lost to abortion. Had the pregnancy been prevented to begin with, there would have been no life to lose at all. Without prevention that human life would have been terminated, thus prevention saves human loss of life. If you're unable to follow logical lines of reason, then maybe it best you remain silent. It's far better to be thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
It would generate revenue that could be applied to free birth control, help fund child care and education.

It would also generate costs associated with investigating every instance of abortion, including ones that don't actually happen in clinics, because there's only like 200 ways to induce an abortion on yourself, with all the information freely available online, to make sure such tax is paid. I know people who have never filed an income tax return, already. They aren't going to be prosecuted (for the most part, if the taxes are taken out by an employer, they are losing out on money available to them) because the cost of chasing after someone who owes the IRS seven bucks costs more than seven hundred bucks.

Everything thing sounds great when you ignore costs and highlight revenue.

It hasn't been implemented so there is no data to date to prove it would decrease abortions, but it would help encourage greater responsibility and accountability.

Also no data to prove it would encourage greater responsibility and accountability. At least the former is something that you probably could prove because it's a quantitative factor. There is no responsibility and accountability scale.

The evidence is the fact that a tax would be applied in which those subjected to it would be held responsible for paying, thus resulting in a degree of accountability.

In what other instance has a tax ever held anyone responsible or accountable?

If they follow your lead and leave the country to evade. Good riddance! This nation is better better off without you.

I think of more as I'd be better off without this nation.

Also, I don't think abortion is irresponsible either. Sometimes it's the most responsible thing to do. Getting pregnant while being unwilling to have a child however IS irresponsible when it could easily be prevented by simple modifications in behavior.

Dude, half of all pregnancies are unintended. A few are happening at the moment you read this. If it was easily prevented by simple modifications in behavior, there would be millions and millions of instance accidentally doing it.

"• Most American families want two children. To achieve this, the average woman spends about five years pregnant, postpartum or trying to become pregnant, and three decades—more than three-quarters of her reproductive life—trying to avoid an unintended pregnancy.[1]

• Most individuals and couples want to plan the timing and spacing of their childbearing and to avoid unintended pregnancies, for a range of social and economic reasons. In addition, unintended pregnancy has a public health impact: Births resulting from unintended or closely spaced pregnancies are associated with adverse maternal and child health outcomes, such as delayed prenatal care, premature birth and negative physical and mental health effects for children. [2,3,4]

• For these reasons, reducing the unintended pregnancy rate is a national public health goal. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ Healthy People 2020 campaign aims to reduce unintended pregnancy by 10%, from 49% of pregnancies to 44% of pregnancies, over the next 10 years.[5]

• Currently, about half (51%) of the 6.6 million pregnancies in the United States each year (3.4 million) are unintended see box).[6]

• In 2008, 40% of unintended pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) ended in abortion and 60% ended in birth. This was a shift from 2001, when 47% ended in abortion and 53% ended in a birth.[6]

• Two-thirds (68%) of U.S. women at risk for unintended pregnancy use contraception consistently and correctly throughout the course of any given year; these women account for only 5% of all unintended pregnancies. In contrast, the 18% of women at risk who use contraception inconsistently or incorrectly account for 41% of all unintended pregnancies. The 14% of women at risk who do not practice contraception at all or who have gaps of a month or more during the year account for 54% of all unintended pregnancies (see graph).[14]

• Publicly funded family planning services help women avoid pregnancies they do not want and plan pregnancies they do want. In 2013, these services helped women avoid 2 million unintended pregnancies, which would likely have resulted in about 1 million unintended births and nearly 700,000 abortions.[15]

• Without publicly funded family planning services, the number of unintended pregnancies, unplanned births and abortions occurring in the United States would be 60% higher among women overall.[15]

• The costs associated with unintended pregnancy would be even higher if not for continued federal and state investments in family planning services. In 2010, the nationwide public investment in family planning services resulted in $13.6 billion in net savings from helping women avoid unintended pregnancies and a range of other negative reproductive health outcomes, such as HIV and other STIs, cervical cancer and infertility.[16]

• In the absence of the current U.S. publicly funded family planning effort, the public costs of unintended pregnancies in 2010 might have been 75% higher.[13]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html

As for poverty and the correlation between it and those who abort. You're suggesting poverty directly influences the reason people have abortions, right? I would agree, but then there's an underlying cause that places them in such positions. What do you think that might be?

I'd imagine wealthier people might actually get more abortions in general. I'd have to look at that more specifically cause I might be wrong. Either way, unintended pregnancies happen more lower on economic scale.

As for taxing drug users. Sure! Lets legalize drugs like abortions and that would be a very valid suggestion.

Mm, if drugs are legalized, there's not really a reason to tax drug users, because most would ignore legalities and acquire it elsewhere anyways. As for illegal drug use. That's actually a problem, it funds criminals. A tax on weed itself has already made CO a lot of money.

Furthermore, you said you'd quit working to evade the tax. Most don't have that luxury and are required to work.

People are going to have abortions despite it's legality and its conditions. By adding a 5% tax for life to an abortion, you're going to encourage abortions in not medically safe environments by professionals. As I mentioned, how to abort will yield as much as you'd imagine online as anything else does.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The logic follows the premise that if a baby is conceived and terminated, an unborn human life will have been lost to abortion. Had the pregnancy been prevented to begin with, there would have been no life to lose at all. Without prevention that human life would have been terminated, thus prevention saves human loss of life. If you're unable to follow logical lines of reason, then maybe it best you remain silent. It's far better to be thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt.

At first you said if you saved one life, and now you are saying to save human loss of life. There's a big difference there.

If every abortion tomorrow was replaced instead with prevention of the pregnancy, than no one's life was saved.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
No investigation would be required. Either abortion is a medical necessity or it is not.

I can't believe you know this little about medicine, much less prenatal care. "Medical necessity" is a huge gray area.

All pregnancies carry an elevated risk to the mother over not being pregnant. Some more than others. Then there is the risks to the baby. Assessing all these is not precise.
A normal pregnancy with good prenatal care doesn't present much danger. Problems can be caught early and the best thing to do decided. Usually the odds of fixing a problem are good. But they vary.
And a risk that is acceptable to one person or couple may not be to another. Suppose a pregnancy has approximately 5% risk of severe damage or death to the mother, and a 20/40% risk of a mentally disabled child. And two different doctors have different opinions on what the risks really are. One couple might decide to have an abortion and start over. Another might decide to go for it.
If your going to start handing out penalties you are going to have to draw some clear bright lines in one of murkiest gray areas imaginable.
Tom
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Point out the holes. Lets discuss it without getting personal. I'm sure there are holes in this, but nothing valid has been pointed out yet. I do think free birth control would help tremendously. This issue comes down to finding a viable solution that will help encourage more responsible behavior. Poverty is another issue altogether. Poverty is not an excuse to make bad decisions. If anything, it demands better. What I propose is a viable option that despite the contention, would help spur greater responsibility, which would lead to a decrease in the number of abortions performed significantly. The revenue generated could help fund free birth control. It doesn't target a specific gender, and could likewise help fun the expense of child care for working families who live in poverty.


While people tend to shut down and get angry when new tax initiatives are being discussed, it is a very appropriate compromise that doesn't infringe on anyone's rights and would most assuredly help decrease abortions by increasing greater responsibility as well as accountability. It's a very simple premise: If you don't want to be taxed, don't get pregnant and terminate to maintain a lifestyle. It's simple. Use multiple contraceptives between you and your sex partner/s. Be more responsible, and the risk of an unwanted pregnancy decreases exponentially. No one is forcing anyone to change anything about their lifestyles. Being irresponsible is choice much like a woman's choice to terminate unborn human life is a choice. Being responsible is likewise a choice. It needs to be encouraged.
I didn't get personal. Pointing out that you are trying to sell a tax to a party that wants to repeal all taxes is not getting personal.

Pointing out the correlation between poverty and abortion is pointing out a hole in your logic. You are expecting people who have no money to pay money.

Taxing people for getting abortions will not stop people from getting abortions. Such a tax on a basic right, which medical privacy is one of, is probably going to be laughed at by the most conservative members of SCOTUS.

A tax on a basic right doesn't infringe on rights. :tearsofjoy: I think you need to take this one back to the drawing board. A more appropriate idea would be to work for national acceptance of the only methods PROVED to reduce abortion, no attempting to recreate the wheel.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
This is one of the annoying logical fallacies commonly used by the baby killers. It is called "the fallacy of the excluded middle".
People can have sex every day with zero risk of pregnancy. Gay sex, oral sex, the list is long. But "PenisinVagina" sex is the big favorite among heterosexual people. So pretending that abstaining from PiV sex equates to virginal chastity is common. Even PiV sex can be made nearly pregnancy proof. PiV sex using a diaphragm, condoms, at the right time in a woman's monthly cycle is virtually foolproof. The chances of conceiving a new human being are less than being struck by lightning in the middle of orgasm. But that requires effort, expense, and self-control.

So it is easier to pretend that pregnancy is a random event, like a tumor or a parasitic infestation. Therefore holding up people accountable in any way is an infringement on their rights.
Tom
That's the most ridiculous assessment of the "baby killing" argument I've heard come out of the "women's purpose is to incubate the next generation" sector. It's not a fallacy, of any kind, to acknowledge that birth control fails. It's inflated in the deep recesses of your mind only.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
That's the most ridiculous assessment of the "baby killing" argument I've heard come out of the "women's purpose is to incubate the next generation" sector. It's not a fallacy, of any kind, to acknowledge that birth control fails. It's inflated in the deep recesses of your mind only.

You completely missed my point. Here it is again:
"People can have sex every day with zero risk of pregnancy. "
The premise that people can't stop having sex is not relevant to my opinions, but it comes up a lot anyway.
Tom
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
You completely missed my point. Here it is again:
"People can have sex every day with zero risk of pregnancy. "
The premise that people can't stop having sex is not relevant to my opinions, but it comes up a lot anyway.
Tom
No, people can have sex every day with reduced risk of pregnancy. Your assumption that the premise is that people can't stop having sex is your deliberate misrepresentation of the argument, which is that people should not have to stop having sex.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
No, people can have sex every day with reduced risk of pregnancy. Your assumption that the premise is that people can't stop having sex is your deliberate misrepresentation of the argument, which is that people should not have to stop having sex.

Wrong.
People can have sex every day with zero risk of pregnancy. As I explained in my post.

No risk of pregnancy is not the same as having no sex at all. It just isn't.

Which eliminates the argument "People need sex" from any relevance to the discussion.
Tom
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Wrong.
People can have sex every day with zero risk of pregnancy. As I explained in my post.

No risk of pregnancy is not the same as having no sex at all. It just isn't.

Which eliminates the argument "People need sex" from any relevance to the discussion.
Tom
Judgmental as always. Birth control fails. Learn to accept it.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Just the sort of vapid and irrelevant response I've come to expect.
Tom
Thank you. It's always delightful to speak with you on this issue because you are so damn judgmental. I think you are a great person otherwise. I'm fine never, ever speaking about this issue with you.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I didn't get personal. Pointing out that you are trying to sell a tax to a party that wants to repeal all taxes is not getting personal.
If the Pubs really did want to repeal all taxes, I'd have more sympathy for them.
But they're almost as much into big government & high taxes as the Dems.
Libertarians are the ones who want to drastically cut taxes & spending.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
A degree of accountability should be applied when unwanted pregnancies can be prevented by simply modifying behavior and making more responsible decisions.
I'm not disagreeing with this, I just think that being punitive via the tax system is not going to have the effect you believe it will

I've already stated my reasons for thinking this.
Yeah, but... it'll be exactly the same financial incentive, in the one case you think it will lead to a change in behaviour, in the other you think it won't. Neither of us have anything more than our own instinct about human nature as to whether the behavoiur change is likely..
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
If the Pubs really did want to repeal all taxes, I'd have more sympathy for them.
But they're almost as much into big government & high taxes as the Dems.
Libertarians are the ones who want to drastically cut taxes & spending.
Not much difference IMO these betwixt the two. Grover Norquist doesn't care if you're a republican or libertarian, you'll sign his pledge or politically die. As a party, the GOP wants abortion criminalizes so badly they don't care that women will suffer needlessly and die, they aren't about to allow it to happen so long as the gubment profits from it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'd like to see a 10% surcharge to people who propose any income tax increase.
(Rising taxes & gov spending is a bigger problem than abortion.)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
No investigation would be required. Either abortion is a medical necessity or it is not. The only investigations that could possibly be required are in the cases of those who claim rape, which very few will actually do deceptively. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you're grasping at straws with that one.
Then how do you know if it is for convenience or not unless someone looks into it? You also have yet to define what parameters would define convenient. I'm assuming just because someone doesn't want to have a child would qualify, but what about those who can't afford to have a child, but become pregnant anyways?
 

Nicholas

Bodhicitta
ZenMonkey - Our society is materialistic enough as is. Using financial means to try and solve an ethical aberration (aka sin) also misses the mark.

The end of trophy hunting, vivisection, animal cruelty, sexual slavery etc. are slowly coming to pass, eventually abortion will also end.
 
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