a letter to the muslims

[chuck010342]

Well I don't think I agree with any of these exactly. I believe the Qur'an to be the Word of God and to be true.

Hence the bible is wrong

I also believe the Bible to based on revealations from God and sayings of God's Prophets. I believe there are some truths in the Bible but I also recognise that it does contain errors.

Where does it go wrong?

 

[chuck010342]

With regards to verse 19:67 it would appear that what we are dealing with is a bad interpretation of the verse. Moiz Amjad has translated it (in an article dealing with this exact subject, which you might want to read for further clarification on this): "Does not man call to mind that We created him [while] before that he was nothing." Meaning that doesn't man call to mind that before there was no man and God then created him, not that man was created from nothing. When we look at the precedeeding verse it becomes more apparent that this is what the verse means.

"And says man: When I am dead, shall I truly be brought forth alive?" Qur'an 19:66

This verse shows that man is questioning whether or not the ressurection will take place. The next verse, 19:67, is God's reply to man, in which God affirms that He had the power to create man before when there was no exsiting man, and so why shouldn't God have the power to bring man back to life. Let me provide some more translations of this verse that are a little more clear as to what it means.

"Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing?" (Maulana Muhammad Ali)

"Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?" (Pickthal)
Again we can see from these translations that the verse says that God created man (not specifying what from) when there was no man before.

Now, regarding verse 52:35 which states:

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?"

Firstly, this verse doesn't state that God created man out of nothing, in fact it's asking the disbelievers if they were created out of nothing. So it doesn't support your idea. Second, there is a greater meaning to it as can be seen if one reads the commentary provided by Yusuf Ali, which says:

"Three possible alternative meanings are suggested by the Commentators, according to the meaning we give to the Arabic preposition min = of, by, with, for. (1) Were they created by nothing? Did they come into existence of themselves? Was it a mere chance that they came into being? (2) Were they created as men out of nothing? Was there not a wonderful seed, from which their material growth can be traced, as the handiwork of a wise and wonderful Creator? Must they not then seek His Will? (3) Were they created for nothing, to no purpose? If they were created for a purpose, must they not try to learn that purpose by understanding God's Revelation?"

It seems to me that (3) is probably the most likely meaning because Maulana Muhammad Ali has stated the same thing.

His translation of the verse:
"Or were they created without a (creative) agency? Or are they the creators?"

His commentary says:
"Or without a cause, or without a purpose."

As for the "We" that is used throughout the Qur'an, this has been discussed a number of times on this site. It is merely a "Royal We" refering to one entity and not a number of entities. For more clarification go here, and remember that the same type of thing exsists in the Old Testament as discussed here (my post on page two discusses it with regards to the Qur'an).

So I"m lost in translation then?
Okay do me a favor. Show me a Koran where I can read it so I won't be lost
in translation.

 

[chuck010342]

soooooo the lineage in the gospels is a contradiction

One traces the linage of Abraham and One traces the linage of God they are different not countradictory.

 

[croak]

One traces the linage of Abraham and One traces the linage of God

Allah has a lineage?

 

[chuck010342]

Exactly! Thats exactly what I was trying to get at. Thank you.

I still have questions pending here http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=72964#poststop

 

[croak]

Didn't I answer them?

 

[jewscout]

One traces the linage of Abraham and One traces the linage of God they are different not countradictory.

But the definition of contradiction given by Webster says

a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another

The lineages are inconsistent at best...they are two very different lineages...so it is a contradiction in the lineage of Jesus.

 

[_salam_]

So I"m lost in translation then?
Okay do me a favor. Show me a Koran where I can read it so I won't be lost
in translation.

No I don't think I can give you a perfect translation, I think only Allah could do such a thing. This is why it's important to educate ourselves on such matters, so that we can become aware of what it really means. And whats wrong with a little education, right?

 

[_salam_]

I still have questions pending here http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=72964#poststop

There's a lot on that page and I'm not sure what hasn't been answered, or what you aren't sure about.

 

[chuck010342]

There's a lot on that page and I'm not sure what hasn't been answered, or what you aren't sure about.

If the Koran is perfect then why is it only exsisting in Arabic. A perfect book would cross cultures and languages. If man kind cannot understand passages in it then why are they there?

 

[chuck010342]

Didn't I answer them?

not all of them.

 

[chuck010342]

No I don't think I can give you a perfect translation, I think only Allah could do such a thing. This is why it's important to educate ourselves on such matters, so that we can become aware of what it really means. And whats wrong with a little education, right?

There is no perfect translation of a perfect book, therefore Allah is showing particularity toward a specific lanugage and therefore Allah cannot be omniscient and Omnipotent.

 

[chuck010342]

I fully agree, but I doubt that anyone who subscribes to Sola Scriptura will...

Sola Sciptura :woohoo: :jam:

 

[chuck010342]

But the definition of contradiction given by Webster says

The lineages are inconsistent at best...they are two very different lineages...so it is a contradiction in the lineage of Jesus.[/b]

Perhaps we are lost in word choice.

This is how webster defines a countradiction in the sense I am working from


2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>

 

[Scott1]

Sola Sciptura :woohoo: :jam:

That was not a compliment

Why don't you drop by and explain sola scriptura on this thread: CLICK HERE.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

No I wasn't depressed, I was just using that as an example as to why I have not posted in a while. The truth is I really don't care about anybody on this earth and nobody cares about me. So I say screw em all but I get bored so I post stuff agian. neverending cycle.

Well, the fact that so many are posting is rather an indicator against the 'nobody cares about me' thought. And I'm sorry that you don't care about anyone on this earth, because I wish I could heal that.

 

[chuck010342]

Well I have to dissagree with you here, one reason being that they (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) can't even agree perfectly on the Gospels.

They are not exactly the same I grant you that, but they are not countradictory either which shows that they must be truthful. I could exspound on this more if you would like to hear one of my boring lectures on the gospels

 

[chuck010342]

Well, the fact that so many are posting is rather an indicator against the 'nobody cares about me' thought. And I'm sorry that you don't care about anyone on this earth, because I wish I could heal that.

Yes but I think there hearts are in the wrong place. You might be able to heal that, I have no doubt but it doesn't look like thats a possibility.

 

[_salam_]

If the Koran is perfect then why is it only exsisting in Arabic.

As I said before, because thats the language Muhammad (pbuh) spoke. Muhammad (pbuh) wouldn't understand a revelation in English.

A perfect book would cross cultures and languages.

Thats your opinion.

If man kind cannot understand passages in it then why are they there?

Go back and read post #150 I gave a few different explanations.

I'm through arguing with you about the Qur'an being perfect only in Arabic and such. It is only your opinion that it isn't perfect because it is only in Arabic and as you know I obviously dissagree with that. Neither of us is going to convince eachother differently, so lets just agree to dissagree on this subject. Now if there are other matters that you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to do so.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Allah is god, so is Jesus, as well as Jehova,Thor, Macbnah, Noredions, milkobaxeres, calikjsregc.

you know why you didn't hear of the last four Gods? because people before me in my lands did not have good enough swords or good enough tactics to prevent the onslaught of those that held belief in those "other" "gods".:woohoo: