a letter to the muslims

[lilithu]

which brings up another question. If God is omniscent they why go on a pilgramige?

The same question could be directed against you. If God is omniscient, then why pray at all? After all, God already knows what it is you're gonna say.

It's because prayer isn't for God. God directed us to pray for our sake, not God's. God doesn't need anything. Prayer is for the person doing the praying, in order to help the person orient him or herself towards God. The same thing with a pilgrimage.

 

[lilithu]

If the Koran is perfect then why is it only exsisting in Arabic. A perfect book would cross cultures and languages. If man kind cannot understand passages in it then why are they there?

Why in the world does the fact that the Qur'an is written in Arabic show that it's not "perfect"? Muslims believe that the Qu'ran was handed to them directly thru a series of revelations to the prophet Muhammed over the course of one month - the holy month of Ramadan. Since it was handed down in total, without need for revision, to a man who spoke Arabic, of course it would be recorded in Arabic. The Qur'an has been translated into many different languages. I have an English translation by Arburry (sp?). But since it was handed down in Arabic, and since something is always lost in translation, it would still be ideal to study the Qur'an in its original language, which is why it is only recited in Arabic and why many Muslims, regardless of their native tongue, start to learn Arabic when they convert.

As opposed to the bible, which was written as several different texts over the course of centuries by different men of different cultures who wrote in different languages. There is always the danger of translation errors. Now you, as a whatever-you-are - a non-Christian follower of Christ, can believe that the Holy Spirit kept the spirit of the bible intact despite the perils of translation and time. But for most Muslims, that just shows that God's message, which He gave to the previous prophets, got corrupted and that is why God had to reveal His truths one last time to Muhammed, the seal of the prophets. And God did it in such a way that this time, there would be no mix ups.

And that is why, the Qur'an is to a Muslim what Christ is to a Christian. It is the incarnated word of God. A Muslim comes to God thru the Qur'an as a Christian comes to God thru Christ.

In response to something else that you mentioned, Jesus is much more than "just a prophet" to Muslims. Out of all the humans who ever existed, only Adam and Jesus were made directly by God's hands. All others were created by the natural process that God put into motion. And it is Jesus (or Issa) who will come again to judge, just as most Christians believe.

 

[kreeden]

Thats just my point. They can't be christians if they do some things that, The very man whom Christianity is based around, Didn't do they are not christians

???? Ok , I'm not going to get into what a Christian is , or isn't . Or any other religion . But people ... the is another matter . Although many people are sleep-like , very few of us are clones . If Jesus was left handed , would all Christians have to be left handed ?

 

[_salam_]

To Lilithu,
Very well said, and informative post. However, I did notice one mistake that you made. You said:

Muslims believe that the Qu'ran was handed to them directly thru a series of revelations to the prophet Muhammed over the course of one month - the holy month of Ramadan.

The revelations weren't handed down to Muhammad (pbuh) in the course of a month, but rather the course of 22 to 23 years. The first revelation was revealed in the month of Ramadan, and thus the holy significance, after that they were spread out over the rest of the Prophet's life. Some times the revelations would come at a somewhat random time and sometimes they would come dirrectly in response to an issue. Also, every Ramadan the Angel Gabriel would come and review the Qur'an in it's entirety and correct order for all that had been revealed up to that point. The Ramadan before the Prophet's death the Qur'an was reviewed twice, just to make sure the Prophet had gotten everything correctly.

Hope this helps clear that up.

 

[lilithu]

To Lilithu,
Very well said, and informative post. However, I did notice one mistake that you made. You said:
The revelations weren't handed down to Muhammad (pbuh) in the course of a month, but rather the course of 22 to 23 years. The first revelation was revealed in the month of Ramadan, and thus the holy significance, after that they were spread out over the rest of the Prophet's life. Some times the revelations would come at a somewhat random time and sometimes they would come dirrectly in response to an issue. Also, every Ramadan the Angel Gabriel would come and review the Qur'an in it's entirety and correct order for all that had been revealed up to that point. The Ramadan before the Prophet's death the Qur'an was reviewed twice, just to make sure the Prophet had gotten everything correctly.

Hope this helps clear that up.

Hello salam,
thanks for taking the time to correct my misunderstanding. Actually, if I had thought about it a little more, I should have known that wasn't right, since (I was taught that) the revelations sometimes came in response to issues that were raised within the Muslim community. I must have been confusing Gibreel's visits during Ramadan with the revelations themselves. I did not know that he came to review.

thanks, -lilith

 

[jewscout]

hmmm i think chuck ran away.....:sarcastic

 

[croak]

How lovely.............

 

[mahayana]

I have other questions for muslims. Do you think it would be more appropriate to start another thread, or continue this one?

 

[_salam_]

I have other questions for muslims. Do you think it would be more appropriate to start another thread, or continue this one?

With regards to what?

 

[anders]

Lots of interesting points. I have especially enjoyed the exchange between lilithu and salam. Now that I've talked my equipment into allowing me 'net access again, there are too many things to comment on. I'll just mention that, however interesting the rest of the post, the etymology of TamerAhmad is wrong. Prayer and connect are derived from quite different roots in Arabic: Prayer (Salaa(tun)) has the root <Slw>, and connect (waSala) is derived from <wSl>. (The capital S indicates the pharyngeal/"emphatic" s.)

 

[_salam_]

Man I need to learn Arabic, it would just make things so much easier.

 

[TamerAhmad]

Lots of interesting points. I have especially enjoyed the exchange between lilithu and salam. Now that I've talked my equipment into allowing me 'net access again, there are too many things to comment on. I'll just mention that, however interesting the rest of the post, the etymology of TamerAhmad is wrong. Prayer and connect are derived from quite different roots in Arabic: Prayer (Salaa(tun)) has the root <Slw>, and connect (waSala) is derived from <wSl>. (The capital S indicates the pharyngeal/"emphatic" s.)

I am an arab I may be wrong but I dont get it , what does Slw mean then ?

 

[anders]

That is a rather normal way, at least in Europe, of explaining that 'prayer' has the root Saad-laam-waaw, where S is used to distinguish Saad from siin. Accordingly, the root for 'connect' is waaw-Saad-laam; thus the roots are different. The Slw rot means 'pray, worship' (the verb Sallawa); the wSl root (verb waSala) means 'connect, join, unite' etc.

 

[TamerAhmad]

Thats a first for me , but thank you anyway !

But still we do pray 5 times a day to maintain that connection and not stary from the right path .

 

[Lord_Vader]

The god of islam "Allah", was in fact around a long time before muhhammad started the religion of islam. In fact, the arabs used to worship 3 gods and allah was in fact the moon god worshiped by arab tribes people (this is were the islamic symbol of the cressent moon & star comes from).

History has it, but will be debated strongly by muslims, as it discredits their relgion, that when muhhammad needed to choose a god, he could not, so he wrote the three god's names down on individual paper, placed the three pieces into a hat and drew only one and that one was the god allah.

There is a lot of truth to the real history of the creation of islam and most of it over time has been deceptive & false, but covered up by lies and other methods of deception by muhhamad himself (doomsday, burn in hell for questioning gods word etc written throughout the qu'ran). However, like the christian faith, islam grew the same way, had it's own crusades (muslim invaders, sword of islam) and established it's place in the world as an accepted faith due to its number of followers.

The visions and messages that both Jesus & Muhhammad had experienced, can be experienced by anyone through deep meditation. Even Buddha himself experienced this and preached the same things as Jesus & Muhhammad did long before them. Unlike Jesus & Muhhammad, he didn't have to go around claiming to be a messanger of a god, but just a human like everyone else (of course there where those who will always distort this immage of buddha as superhuman).

As time goes on and we become more advanced and collect & research more information, much truth will come out that will discredit, expose lies & delibrate deceptions and flaws in every religion, because at the end of the day, religion was created by humans as a means of controlling human behaviour.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Oh, before I forget this one too... There was a story covered in the "National Geographic Magazine in either 2003 or 2004 about the journey of Abraham.

In this article, they traced the journey's of abraham. In all his journeys, abraham never went anywhere near Mecca/Mecca region or even build the Kabar.

This is a proven fact through ancient records & many years of research. So Muhhammad here is exposed as a lier by making false statements. It is obvious that Muhhammad was trying to add strength to his religion of Islam to generate believers to become follows. In todays society, Muhhammad would make a great used car sales person.

 

[Lloyd]

No I wouldn't because Satan has disguised himself as an angel of light. And I can quote that from the bible, 2 Corinthians 11:14

And how can you tell the difference between an angel of light and Satan? Just because somebody comes along and says they have a message from God, doesn't necessarily mean that they're Satan in disguise. Both scenarios are entirely possible.

I'm reminded of Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits."

 

[Lloyd]

The visions and messages that both Jesus & Muhhammad had experienced, can be experienced by anyone through deep meditation. Even Buddha himself experienced this and preached the same things as Jesus & Muhhammad did long before them.

I don't think you're in a position to speak knowledgeably about the origin of Jesus and Muhammed's missions. They would know more about this than would you or I. Thus, I take their word for it, knowing that I'm not in a position to challenge them.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Lloyd, you must never take anyones word on anything unless in your heart you know it is true. You are bron with the knowledge of the way of the universe and life. You must always challange everything to seek the truth or you will end up following some cult like many a day do.

If you do not believe what I write that is good. How about you discover for yourself, let me start you on your way. In time you see and know the truth for yourself.

You must find a place which is less of destraction, sit down keeping your back & neck stright and your head up. (sometimes it helps to sit on a firm cusion or a chair with some pillows to support your lower back).

Take three deep breaths in and exhale quickly expelling all the air and tension in your body. Now close your eyes or focus on an object (candle light helps). If your eyes are open, you must concentrate on the light, if your eyes become heavey, close them. If you choose to close your eyes concentrate on your breath in & out.

Now start to inhale slowly to the count of 12 and hold 3 secs then exhale quickly and repeat this process (in hale through the nose and exhale through the mouth). You have to train the body to breathe propbly first. When you have thoughts and distractions, let them go by acknowledge them and go back to concentrate on your breathing.

Your aim is to extend your meditaion longer and longer, over a period of continual practice (I find 3/4am the best time). Once you get your breathing to an automatic stage you can start to focus on a word like love, god or a pleasent thought or focus on nothing, depending on how you are going. (Concentrating on a word helps to train the mind to focus on one thing and not every thing it thinks or senses)

After awhile you will start to flickering of images or even a white light that appears and disolves into darkness, eventully as you learn to switch of your senses and achieve a state of no mind (no thoughts) you will see that white light even more and will eventully cross into it.

You will come out of your meditation when your mind is ready at this stage. The white light is your spirit, mind what ever you want to call it and it is at this stage you will see and learn much about life, hidden deep in your mind.

You will notice strange feelings and the difference once you achieve this state. Happy practice

 

[Lloyd]

Lloyd, you must never take anyones word on anything unless in your heart you know it is true. You are bron with the knowledge of the way of the universe and life. You must always challange everything to seek the truth or you will end up following some cult like many a day do.

If you do not believe what I write that is good. How about you discover for yourself, let me start you on your way. In time you see and know the truth for yourself.

You must find a place which is less of destraction, sit down keeping your back & neck stright and your head up. (sometimes it helps to sit on a firm cusion or a chair with some pillows to support your lower back).

Take three deep breaths in and exhale quickly expelling all the air and tension in your body. Now close your eyes or focus on an object (candle light helps). If your eyes are open, you must concentrate on the light, if your eyes become heavey, close them. If you choose to close your eyes concentrate on your breath in & out.

Now start to inhale slowly to the count of 12 and hold 3 secs then exhale quickly and repeat this process (in hale through the nose and exhale through the mouth). You have to train the body to breathe propbly first. When you have thoughts and distractions, let them go by acknowledge them and go back to concentrate on your breathing.

Your aim is to extend your meditaion longer and longer, over a period of continual practice (I find 3/4am the best time). Once you get your breathing to an automatic stage you can start to focus on a word like love, god or a pleasent thought or focus on nothing, depending on how you are going. (Concentrating on a word helps to train the mind to focus on one thing and not every thing it thinks or senses)

After awhile you will start to flickering of images or even a white light that appears and disolves into darkness, eventully as you learn to switch of your senses and achieve a state of no mind (no thoughts) you will see that white light even more and will eventully cross into it.

You will come out of your meditation when your mind is ready at this stage. The white light is your spirit, mind what ever you want to call it and it is at this stage you will see and learn much about life, hidden deep in your mind.

You will notice strange feelings and the difference once you achieve this state. Happy practice

I've studied and practiced Buddhism. What school is this from? I'm accustomed to Zen where we're usually pretty skeptical of the usefulness of white lights and strange feelings.


As for the taking people's word for it thing....I would have come up with a better way of saying that but I was pressed for time. Naturally, it didn't come out right. What I wanted to say was that it doesn't make sense to proclaim so much knowledge about people we've never met, particularly if they are clearly very different than you and me. We don't know that Jesus and Muhammed were just delusional. To an extent it is unverifiable whether or not Jesus and Muhammed were genuine. I just see sufficient reason for believing them.