a letter to the muslims

[mahayana]

I hesitate to add to this thread with many colored strands, as it it already so long. One of the initial questions was about "correct" prayer, and the distinction between worship in Islam and Christianity.

Chuck asked why muslims pray facing Mecca, make pilgrimages, if they believe that Allah is omniscient and omnipotent. I think what followed was an explanation that the Quran specifies these practices, while the public worship in Christianity has no Biblical authority. Some contended that both religions contain conventions, so are equally right or wrong depending on your opinion.

I don't know much about Islam (only having read my Quran through once), but I do think most Christian churches fail to follow Jesus' teachings. It's a little funny, how different the worship services are in the many Christian denominations. Things that divide them include singing or not, musical instruments or not, how women participate, which day of the week to hold the service...on and on. Quakers sit in silence, until recently RCs had mass in Latin. I'd never heard about Christian alters all facing one way...but I doubt that this is the case.

Jesus was a jew, at least as a child he went to Temple. The last supper was a Passover feast. I presume he remembered the Sabbath (Saturday) and kept it holy. I'm not sure he proscribed any public practices for a new religion worshipping himself (though he did get baptised and told his disciples to remember him when they broke bread and drank wine). He did, however, have some specific instructions about prayer, recorded in chapter 6 of Matthew. To paraphrase:

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them."

"You must not...stand and pray aloud in the synagogues and street corners."

"When you pray, go into your closet and shut the door."

"Pray like this- OUR father, who art in heaven..."

 

[xander-]

Now i finally got thru the 21 pages of debates, and i come up with this. Chuck, the "my god is better than your god" is outdated. Also you are making conradictions YOURSELF.
First you say you are not christian. But christians follow the NT. You then say that you belive in jesus, and you get your information about jesus from the bible. Well as far as i know, jesus is only written about in the NT. So you are therefore christian.
Secondly, you are trying to pick a fight. Whether you will admit to it or not, thats your goal.
Thirdly, and i hope you can agree, the bible is not 100% true. And yet, you say you seek the truth. But jesus didn't walk on the water, he did not cure blindness, he did not bring the dead back to life and he did not bring him self back to life(unless he was in the longest v-tac ever recorded). Now i am not saying that he never lived, i am saying that somethings the bible says he did, is a lie. therefore i have help you on your way to the truth.
And for everyone here, quoting the bible and the Qu'Ran does NOT make you right!

-Xander

 

[chuck010342]

As I said before, because thats the language Muhammad (pbuh) spoke. Muhammad (pbuh) wouldn't understand a revelation in English.

Thats your opinion.
Go back and read post #150 I gave a few different explanations.

The Koran is written in Arabic so Anybody who doesn't understand arabic will not understand it. If you don't understand something then it is not perfect.

I'm through arguing with you about the Qur'an being perfect only in Arabic and such. It is only your opinion that it isn't perfect because it is only in Arabic and as you know I obviously dissagree with that. Neither of us is going to convince eachother differently, so lets just agree to dissagree on this subject. Now if there are other matters that you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to do so.

I think this is such an important point. This is not my opinion this is reason If you don't want to debate this anymore then I bid you farwell but my question is still not answered.

 

[chuck010342]

Now i finally got thru the 21 pages of debates, and i come up with this.

I'm not arguing from that perspective. I am arguing from Truth where ever it may lead.

First you say you are not christian. But christians follow the NT.

They Do? Christians today follow 5 gospels Mark, Matthew, Luke and John and the Christian, and they don't read the first four.

You then say that you belive in jesus, and you get your information about jesus from the bible. Well as far as i know, jesus is only written about in the NT.

Yes I subscribe to Sola Scriptura but as I said I get my information about Jesus From the NT but most people don't.

So you are therefore christian.

No I'm not I follow Jesus. The term christian was first givien to followers of Jesus by the Romans.

Secondly, you are trying to pick a fight. Whether you will admit to it or not, thats your goal.

No I want to debate a fight is not the same thing.

Thirdly, and i hope you can agree, the bible is not 100% true.

No way The bible is 100% true.

And yet, you say you seek the truth. But jesus didn't walk on the water, he did not cure blindness, he did not bring the dead back to life and he did not bring him self back to life(unless he was in the longest v-tac ever recorded).

He did all of these things if you want to know why I think the way I do perhaps you should ask.

Now i am not saying that he never lived, i am saying that somethings the bible says he did, is a lie. therefore i have help you on your way to the truth.

Well your wrong. and you are helping me find the truth I will admit that... thanks.

And for everyone here, quoting the bible and the Qu'Ran does NOT make you right!

you don't understand what the bible is.

 

[chuck010342]

Allah is god, so is Jesus, as well as Jehova,Thor, Macbnah, Noredions, milkobaxeres, calikjsregc.

You cannot make this statement without running into thousands of countradictions.

 

[xander-]

I understand that the bible was made up by man almost 400 years after the death of christ. I understand that water cannot bear the weight of a man if he walked upon it. I understand that bindness cannot be cured, even with laser eye surgery(they didnt have that back then either). And i understand that you cannot be revived after being dead for 3 days. Now if you still dont belive me, read a science book, and if you dont belive that, read my first tread "Supreame Being? Why?"(its in world philosofi).
Now thats the thruth, and even after you read the science book, and you still say no, then you are not debating, because you are not being open. In a single word, you are trying to "convert" from the(in your opinion) bad religion of islam, to the(again only in your opinon) good religion of Christianity or Jesus-ism, or whatever.
As you might see, i am a atheist. That means, that to me, all this about the bible and Qu'Ran is a bunch of hay. Untill you can prove to me that im wrong, im right . Not guilty untill proven otherwise!!

-Xander

 

[Godless Dave]

Christmas falls on december 25 and the bible never says that Jesus was Born on that date. Jesus never said to celebrate christmas therefore I don't. That s more of a 'liberal christian' concept

Who knew the pope was a liberal Christian?

 

[jewscout]

Perhaps we are lost in word choice.

This is how webster defines a countradiction in the sense I am working from


2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>

But they are statements which contradict each other chuck. Both are lines through joseph paterlinealy and neither are the same.

 

[mahayana]

"No way The bible is 100% true."

You might consider the accuracy of Jesus' prophecy, Matthew 16, 28 "Truly, I say to you,there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom." Most Christians are still waiting for kingdom come, while the folks Jesus mentioned have been dead nearly 2000 years now.

Makes him more human to me, to be mistaken at times.

 

[chuck010342]

I understand that the bible was made up by man almost 400 years after the death of christ.

This proves that you don'tknow the bible. What were the jews reading? if the bible was made up after christ death?

I understand that water cannot bear the weight of a man if he walked upon it.

but you don't understand that Jesus was not just a man.

I understand that bindness cannot be cured, even with laser eye surgery(they didnt have that back then either).

But you don't understand that God gives the gift of sight to people and can take it away or restore it at any time.

And i understand that you cannot be revived after being dead for 3 days.

But you don't understand that God takes life and gives life hence can restore it.

Now if you still dont belive me, read a science book, and if you dont belive that, read my first tread "Supreame Being? Why?"(its in world philosofi).
Now thats the thruth, and even after you read the science book, and you still say no, then you are not debating, because you are not being open.

Why would I read a "science book" The bible is a science book just look at its biology and its astronomy. And if you say no then your not being open minded now are you?

In a single word, you are trying to "convert" from the(in your opinion) bad religion of islam, to the(again only in your opinon) good religion of Christianity or Jesus-ism, or whatever.

Convert? Listen I honestly don't care about what Muslims believe okay? They can do whatever they want and I won't care if nobody wants to debate me nobody has to.

As you might see, i am a atheist. That means, that to me, all this about the bible and Qu'Ran is a bunch of hay. Untill you can prove to me that im wrong, im right . Not guilty untill proven otherwise!!

-Xander

Okay lets start then don't you understand that Atheism is illogical? You don't have supreme knowledge about reality therefore you cannot have the insight to say there is no God it is self defeating.

 

[_salam_]

To Chuck,
I know I said in an earlier post that I was done arguing with you over whether or not the Qur'an is "perfect" or is the "truth", mainly because it was your opinion that it wasn't and it was my opinion that it was and neither of us was going to change their minds about it. However, as I remember, one of the arguments you brought up, for why it couldn't be the truth, was because the Qur'an needed to be translated for those of us who don't speak Arabic, and that there was commentary with these translations to help us better understand the translation because no traslation is 100% acurate. Now the reason I'm bringing all of this back up is because as I was reading through another tread on here, "Sola Scripture", I noticed that you were asked about the many translations of the Bible and about using outside sources to better understand the Bible, and your response was this:

Quite right but truth is found in the scripture first everything else just helps us to understand what is already there. We as humans are not perfect nor do we have infinate knowledge but God does. We start with the scripture revealed by God as the truth but to better understand that proof we need translations and so forth but the ideas in the scripture do not come from men but rather God.

Now I know I gave you responses similar to the one you gave here, but you never accepted them. So I'm wondering why using translations and outside sources, to better understand the "truth", is ok in the case of the Bible but not with the Qur'an.

 

[xander-]

This proves that you don't know the bible. What were the jews reading? if the bible was made up after christ death?[QUOTE/]

I meant the NT. And the NT was writen 400 years after the death of Jesus.

but you don't understand that Jesus was not just a man.[QUOTE/]

Where's your proof?

But you don't understand that God gives the gift of sight to people and can take it away or restore it at any time.[QUOTE/]

? Have you a documentet fact of that in the last 2000 years?

But you don't understand that God takes life and gives life hence can restore it.[QUOTE/]

Why would I read a "science book" The bible is a science book just look at its biology and its astronomy. And if you say no then your not being open minded now are you?[QUOTE/]

Biology? Fishing?
Astronomy? Heaven?

Convert? Listen I honestly don't care about what Muslims believe okay? They can do whatever they want and I won't care if nobody wants to debate me nobody has to.[QUOTE/]

Then why did you start this whole debate by saying "Praying towards mekka is stupid"?
(Well that's not EXACTLY what you said, but somehting like that)

Okay lets start then don't you understand that Atheism is illogical? You don't have supreme knowledge about reality therefore you cannot have the insight to say there is no God it is self defeating.

To say there is a god is equal as defeting. And you do not have supreme knowledge either, as i know i dont have to remind you of.

-Xander

 

[Lord_Vader]

Look, I was reading this thread and I think this is the type of think that generates further hatred between the two. No one is right, no one is wrong. All the time the christians and muslims are trying to prove is right and who is wrong, they generate further hatred and mover further away from what both Muhhammad & Jesus where trying to teach them.

The path to god, regardless who you chose to believe is one of heart and compassion, the letting go of the desires which create hate, greed, all things we call evil. Evil is just human stupidity at many different levels.

Every holy book ever written is right as far as Im concern. Christ said, "the way to god is through me" and Mahhamad had his own way of expressing the same message. What christ meant whenb he said this, "was the way to god is through my teachings". Like Buddha, Mahhammad, Abraham, and others like them, the only way to heaven, nabanna, the spiritual realm is through having a pure mind and pure soul, a heart full of compassion for all.

Open your eyes people and read between the lines. No one is wrong and no one is right, just a different message for a different group of people to help them learn to achieve the same thing which is human, to reach spirtual fulfillment and the end of the journy.

 

[jewscout]

Open your eyes people and read between the lines. No one is wrong and no one is right, just a different message for a different group of people to help them learn to achieve the same thing which is human, to reach spirtual fulfillment and the end of the journy.

However Lord_Vader there are some out there who argue that there is a wrong and right answer to this and feel it is their job to enlighten the rest of us poor souls caught in the dark.

 

[_salam_]

Just to clarify for you Lord_Vader, I don't care if Chuck ever comes to Islam or not. So when Jewscout made the comment about some people trying to "enlighten" others, I don't feel that this applies to me. I can respect that Chuck believes his religion to be right and that I believe mine to be right, which I think is what you were getting at when you said no one is right and no one is wrong. I don't feel that this thread has been about (at least for me that is) trying to prove my religion superior. However, I have to disagree with you, and say that people are wrong when they come in here and start posting lies about my religion. Would you not agree that such lies are incorrect and therefore wrong? When I see things like this happen I like to try and explain my belief and show why they are wrong, and I feel that this is what this thread has been about. Not me trying to prove my religion to be right and everybody elses wrong.

 

[Scott1]

However, I have to disagree with you, and say that people are wrong when they come in here and start posting lies about my religion. Would you not agree that such lies are incorrect and therefore wrong? When I see things like this happen I like to try and explain my belief and show why they are wrong, and I feel that this is what this thread has been about. Not me trying to prove my religion to be right and everybody elses wrong.

.... and this is why we love you here at RF _salam_!:jiggy:

Peace be with you,
Scott

 

[TamerAhmad]

Although it saddens me a great deal to hear someone say that Prophet Mohammad did not get any message from Allah I will still try to make my point here:

To chuck I say:

You were obviously not there when Prophet Mohammad got the revelation so how can you be so sure he didn’t....and …

Islam has been greatly distorted over time by its enemies who control some of the most powerful media channels from one end and also by ppl who claim to know Islam and kill in the name of Allah while the only thing they are doing is showing us how ignorant they are about Islam and destroying its image even more.... Knowing this are you still unbiased in your claims or do you carry this wrong image even when you try to read and learn about Islam.

THUS.....I have and always will use the following argument:

If Prophet Mohammad did not get any revelation and came up with the Qur'an himself how did he know all the scientific facts in the Qur'an that have only been recently discovered using the latest technology like for example : the property of the seas, that they meet and yet do not intermix that is stated in (Qur'an, 55:19-20) and the sequence in development of human organs that are always referred to in a specific order in the Qur'an: hearing, sight, feeling and understanding mentioned in (Qur'an, 16:78 and three other places too ) go to http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/ for a complete explanation of hundreds of scientific facts in Qur'an that were not known until very recently .

Please now... do not go to any other point until you explain how Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him knew all these facts 1425 years ago ... and then if you find it to be impossible then admit like some non-Muslim scientists did that the Qur'an would have to be the true word of Allah who created all and thus knows all ..... this is an argument I use with ppl who would not want to get into the glory and completeness of the message of Islam that handles all matters of life from the day one is born till after he dies, I use it with ppl who say that Islam contradicts itself without really studying what the scholars of Islam said about those claims and how they are all very simply explained.

Another point: don’t tell me it was from the devil because then all religions could have been revealed by the devil and then there would be no God (or else he would not let the devil do all this and let all of humanity live a big lie) please try to be objective in your answer.

One last point is that prayer in Arabic "salat" comes from the word "sela" which means connection so praying five times a day in Islam is to maintain the connection with Allah and remain on his side and not let our week selves or the devil give us any ideas, this has nothing to do with Allah being omniscient or omnipotent because it is us who need to be close to him so as not to trip into wrong.

Chuck, Moslems have touched the greatness of this message , they have felt its power in handling and organizing their lives if they were to follow it , they know it is flawless because they never found any contradictions in it not because they don’t want to but because every time they think it contradicts itself they find that it is they who don’t understand, Muslims know it is the truth and thus they follow what Allah says in Islam like the followers of any belief by doing some things that do not have logical explanations like praying five times for example .. why not three or six … or giving 2.5% of their wealth they had for over one year why not 2% why not for six month … this is worship this is religion ;to do what your religion tells you to .. If I were to question each and every rule in my religion then I might as well make my own religion so everything makes sense to me, but then again it does because Allah the omniscient and omnipotent said so.



Regards,

 

[Lord_Vader]

I think the only way one can prove religion, is to go back in time when all the prophets, messangers etc first become enlightened, recieved the message. I was watching this interesting documentry on national geographic station about Eienstien and his theory of multiple universes and time travel.

One comment made by one guy was "Who knows that our future people did not indead discover time travel, came back in time and prentend to be gods & angles and passed on this information to the people to put in place a social structure to cure the problems the future faced". Made me sleepless all night wondering about this. I remember a poster once wrote, "who created god?"and I also noticed a nother post, "Did man create god"......

This is the problem, because the truth is only possiable if we had the ability to go back to the beginning. Who cares who is right and who is wrong, thats not what it is about, but it is about how the religion makes you a better human and how you help reduce the suffering of others. Chariety is to give and expect nothing in return, not even to bost I did this and I did that for that person.

 

[TamerAhmad]

Lord Vader;

I agree with your last point about how religion should make you a better human and how it should help you reduce the suffering of others... but you see it is not up to us to say what religion is only for or what classifies as religion and what doesn’t ... your point is correct but then again how does one become a better human.. What I think is better you may think its filthy.... like the issue of dress for example ... in Islam we have that nudity , full or partial , or even tight cloth that describe the female (and sometimes even the male )body feeds the natural sexual instincts and feelings present in MOST men leading to opposite sex attractions which in turn leads to unofficial relationships outside marriage which leads to adultery which leads to illegitimate children and /or sexual related diseases ...thus Islam prohibits women from going out unveiled and encourages women to stay at home more so as not to mix and mingle with men which leads to same things as the dress issue .... in the mean time it makes the man fully responsible for providing for his family and thus society is cleansed of all the wrong and evil happening around us now..... This is Islam’s view of right.... Islam’s view of how to solve this problem.....does the western world see that as right..... On the contrary, some if not most westerners see what I have just said as women abuse, so who’s to say what is actually right and what is actually wrong, you see in my example the rules does not just handle one issue but it is goes beyond that to become one of the building blocks and safety valves of social life … now humans can make such rules for themselves of course rules that would regulate their lives in many aspects but are they always right? I mean the western world has rules for the example I gave … the rule is there is no rule … wear what you want and do what you please , OK that’s fine but what has that rule accomplished ? Aids? Hundreds of thousands of illegitimate children growing up alone or not knowing who their father is and single mothers raising their children alone and thus never able to do what a healthy family can?

In my opinion and in Islam’s of course the only one who knows what’s good for us is not us but he who created us … OK that’s why we have religions … but I say ;if religion does not handle all issues that make human life right , good and safe then it is not a religion cause it would be like Allah ( GOD ) has betrayed humans and left them without telling them how to live right , good and safe but yet punishes them when they mess up because they will mess up ( as they have ).

Islam handles it all down to the smallest detail … ask ANY question concerning every day life from birth, relationships, marriage, education, dress, work ,money ,trade , economics, rule until death and even after that how to fairly divide his wealth amongst whatever combination of relatives he could have , ask ANYTHING to know what’s good for you and all of society you’ll find an answer .

 

[croak]

If the Koran is perfect then why is it only exsisting in Arabic. A perfect book would cross cultures and languages.

You mean like the Bible? Well, you can see what happened. You have multiple differences in even one verse. So, in your opinion, differences make perfect? First time I hear that.