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A message to all believers from an ex-muslim

Ignite

Member
MY STORY

I'd like to start off my 'religious' story by telling you I am currently 18 years old, I live in and have lived in Dubai all my life. I was brought up a Muslim, I followed it blindly till a day came along that changed my life forever. I am not very proud of what I have done in the past mind you, but I started (edited by staff).

True to tradition, I was, as a child, indoctrinated with the ideology that Israel was the root of all evil. I lived by this fact for almost 14 years of my life. When I was 13, a number of shark attacks terrorized the coastal haven of Sharm El-Sheikh in Egypt. My grandmother promptly concluded that Israeli soldiers had exposed this shark to a hormone that clouded its judgment. The Arabic media, uneager to refute this line of thinking, dissected all the perceived ethical violations committed by Israel with the aid of the United States. One day, however, I came across graffiti etched onto a roundabout on my way to school; it read, “Hate breeds hate,” the three words that forever changed my view of world politics. I hurried home that day and accessed the CNN website. Scrolling to the US politics section, I was baffled. It immediately became clear to me that no one was truly innocent: we were the reagents of a potentially volatile reaction. As a result, I refused to accept media portrayals as fact, deciding that unjustified hate was the bane of world peace. There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology.

When I sobered up I began to think to myself: So what about this God? Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us? I thought he loved us! I am not gay, but this is one of the many things that didn't click for me. What if my parents never had sex? Isn't that better? Does he encourage people to procreate so he can send them to 'Hell'? And what about those Atheists and Christians that do so much good for the world? What about Einstein, Fritz Haber, Steven Hawkings, Mother Teresa, and so many others, is he going to send them straight to hell because they just could not believe? Is he going to send Hindu's to hell because they were born into Hinduism? If he is all understanding, then he would understand that people don't chose what they truly believe, is that really their fault? If a human understands that is unfair treatment, shouldn't a higher power such as himself already know that? And what about stem cell research and abortion, if in his case a person would go straight to heaven if its still a baby, isn't the mother just being utilitarian? Is is right to encourage the suffering of fully developed individuals to save a couple of undeveloped cells that could potentially be born, and even then probably go to hell? Its all such ********, I am Agnostic, I think that there probably isn't, but if there is a God, he won't put people in Hell.

MY NEW PHILOSOPHY

99% of the Saudi Arabian population is muslim, 80% of india's population is Hindu, and more often than not, the religion of the persons parents will be the same as the person himself. So to evaluate the theory that God exists would be to assume God is all knowing. If God is all knowing then he knows what family he is putting you in, he also knows what religion you will be, what pain you will cause, and what religion you will choose to be. For argument's sake, I'm going to stick with the Judaic-Christian God. There are 2 billion Christians in the world, 1.6 billion muslims, and 1.5 million Jews. Now this means that at best, God created 1.75 billion individuals to punish, at worst, 3.6 billion people. This, by the way, is not taking into consideration the rest of the human population. People might also say that God will punish people who commit evil, I truly flinch and stutter when I hear or see people who say this. People have this tendency to forget that other humans are souls with lives, pasts, emotions, and conciseness just like ourselves. We are disgusted by murder and rape (I hope), yet other individuals might be able to justify it to themselves. Just like us, no human wants to truly be evil, there is always a context to every behavior. A pedophile was most likely molested at a young age, we can cringe and stutter all we want, but we will never understand what they go through. It is easy to sit here and judge, but there is a reason as to why we are so obsessed with the concept of 'fair'. A criminal will say its not 'fair' that he watched his family crash and burn in poverty while others would live in sublime wealth, so he robs a grocery or a 7/11. What do we see? We see a bad man who can't get a job, maybe he was too busy looking after his crack-head mom to get a job, maybe the "God" that you all love so dearly never gave him the intelligence he needed to legally break free from the circle of poverty and hunger. We sit in our comfortable chairs and beds, discuss intellectual topics on forums, and judge everyone because we are the all high and mighty, yet what is not understood is that just like we would not do anything for the sake of pure evil, others wouldn't either.

I think that the reason religion exists is because of this obsession we have with 'fairness'. It is part of our human nature, we want everything to be fair. People believe in God because they believe it will provide the ultimate judgement, the ultimate decision of who deprived us of what is fair. What we don't understand is all the things people do are things that we would also probably do under the same situational factors.

EVOLUTION

I'd like to end with a little talk about evolution, because it makes me angry when people say "There is not enough evidence". Fossiles, although substantial, are not the only piece of evidence of evolution. If you visit the natural history museum, you will see that there are mountains of bones and statures of animals that show a clear transition from one phase to another. The theory of evolution by natural selection does not debunk creationism, it is creationism that debunks evolution. The difference is, one has stockpiles of scientific evidence, while the other has an imaginary friend who sent you here to determine whether you are naughty or nice. Have you ever heard of the term "Carbon-14 dating"? Carbon-14 is an isotope of carbon that has an extraordinarily long lifespan (50,000 years ±5,000), it is found in organic corpses and bones that are to be dated back. Scientists determine the "half-life" of the carbon-14 to see exactly how old an organic corpse is. This is just one of the many things that tell us the earth is much older than the bible says it is. From carbon dating, we can also see that the existence of very similar species were often living in much different timeframes from one another. With much further research, it was deduced that many of the physical changes that we can now see resulted from environmental changes in the time-frame the species lived in. This is just the tip of the iceberg, scientists have tons and tons of evidence to show that the world is about 6.4 billion years old. Radiometric age dating of meteorites (a processes similar to carbon-14 dating) also points to this evidence.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Pretty much agree with most of what you said :) Welcome to the forum! (WTF) :D
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
"no human wants to truly be evil"

This was one of the main ideas in the philosophy of the enlightenment. The conclusion was that if people are given freedom, they will take the opportunity to better themselves.

Plato advocated this idea that no one wants to be evil. He thought that most of the evil in the world was caused by ignorance. That people wanted to be good, but didn't know what good was. Or that people thought they knew what good was, but really misunderstood.
 

Ignite

Member
Thank you, I've been wanting to voice my thoughts for so long now, but I can't really do that while living in the Middle East. I am moving to Canada in september to attend University though, hoping I will like it more than here.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Admittedly, I struggle with many of the issues you've pointed out.
I have a tough time believing God would send Mother Theresa and the likes of her to Hell.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
MY STORY

I'd like to start off my 'religious' story by telling you I am currently 18 years old, I live in and have lived in Dubai all my life. I was brought up a Muslim, I followed it blindly till a day came along that changed my life forever. I am not very proud of what I have done in the past mind you, but I started (edited by staff)

True to tradition, I was, as a child, indoctrinated with the ideology that Israel was the root of all evil. I lived by this fact for almost 14 years of my life. When I was 13, a number of shark attacks terrorized the coastal haven of Sharm El-Sheikh in Egypt. My grandmother promptly concluded that Israeli soldiers had exposed this shark to a hormone that clouded its judgment. The Arabic media, uneager to refute this line of thinking, dissected all the perceived ethical violations committed by Israel with the aid of the United States. One day, however, I came across graffiti etched onto a roundabout on my way to school; it read, “Hate breeds hate,” the three words that forever changed my view of world politics. I hurried home that day and accessed the CNN website. Scrolling to the US politics section, I was baffled. It immediately became clear to me that no one was truly innocent: we were the reagents of a potentially volatile reaction. As a result, I refused to accept media portrayals as fact, deciding that unjustified hate was the bane of world peace. There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology.

When I sobered up I began to think to myself: So what about this God? Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us? I thought he loved us! I am not gay, but this is one of the many things that didn't click for me. What if my parents never had sex? Isn't that better? Does he encourage people to procreate so he can send them to 'Hell'? And what about those Atheists and Christians that do so much good for the world? What about Einstein, Fritz Haber, Steven Hawkings, Mother Teresa, and so many others, is he going to send them straight to hell because they just could not believe? Is he going to send Hindu's to hell because they were born into Hinduism? If he is all understanding, then he would understand that people don't chose what they truly believe, is that really their fault? If a human understands that is unfair treatment, shouldn't a higher power such as himself already know that? And what about stem cell research and abortion, if in his case a person would go straight to heaven if its still a baby, isn't the mother just being utilitarian? Is is right to encourage the suffering of fully developed individuals to save a couple of undeveloped cells that could potentially be born, and even then probably go to hell? Its all such bull**it, I am Agnostic, I think that there probably isn't, but if there is a God, he won't put people in Hell.

MY NEW PHILOSOPHY

99% of the Saudi Arabian population is muslim, 80% of india's population is Hindu, and more often than not, the religion of the persons parents will be the same as the person himself. So to evaluate the theory that God exists would be to assume God is all knowing. If God is all knowing then he knows what family he is putting you in, he also knows what religion you will be, what pain you will cause, and what religion you will choose to be. For argument's sake, I'm going to stick with the Judaic-Christian God. There are 2 billion Christians in the world, 1.6 billion muslims, and 1.5 million Jews. Now this means that at best, God created 1.75 billion individuals to punish, at worst, 3.6 billion people. This, by the way, is not taking into consideration the rest of the human population. People might also say that God will punish people who commit evil, I truly flinch and stutter when I hear or see people who say this. People have this tendency to forget that other humans are souls with lives, pasts, emotions, and conciseness just like ourselves. We are disgusted by murder and rape (I hope), yet other individuals might be able to justify it to themselves. Just like us, no human wants to truly be evil, there is always a context to every behavior. A pedophile was most likely molested at a young age, we can cringe and stutter all we want, but we will never understand what they go through. It is easy to sit here and judge, but there is a reason as to why we are so obsessed with the concept of 'fair'. A criminal will say its not 'fair' that he watched his family crash and burn in poverty while others would live in sublime wealth, so he robs a grocery or a 7/11. What do we see? We see a bad man who can't get a job, maybe he was too busy looking after his crack-head mom to get a job, maybe the "God" that you all love so dearly never gave him the intelligence he needed to legally break free from the circle of poverty and hunger. We sit in our comfortable chairs and beds, discuss intellectual topics on forums, and judge everyone because we are the all high and mighty, yet what is not understood is that just like we would not do anything for the sake of pure evil, others wouldn't either.

I think that the reason religion exists is because of this obsession we have with 'fairness'. It is part of our human nature, we want everything to be fair. People believe in God because they believe it will provide the ultimate judgement, the ultimate decision of who deprived us of what is fair. What we don't understand is all the things people do are things that we would also probably do under the same situational factors.

EVOLUTION

I'd like to end with a little talk about evolution, because it makes me angry when people say "There is not enough evidence". Fossiles, although substantial, are not the only piece of evidence of evolution. If you visit the natural history museum, you will see that there are mountains of bones and statures of animals that show a clear transition from one phase to another. The theory of evolution by natural selection does not debunk creationism, it is creationism that debunks evolution. The difference is, one has stockpiles of scientific evidence, while the other has an imaginary friend who sent you here to determine whether you are naughty or nice. Have you ever heard of the term "Carbon-14 dating"? Carbon-14 is an isotope of carbon that has an extraordinarily long lifespan (50,000 years ±5,000), it is found in organic corpses and bones that are to be dated back. Scientists determine the "half-life" of the carbon-14 to see exactly how old an organic corpse is. This is just one of the many things that tell us the earth is much older than the bible says it is. From carbon dating, we can also see that the existence of very similar species were often living in much different timeframes from one another. With much further research, it was deduced that many of the physical changes that we can now see resulted from environmental changes in the time-frame the species lived in. This is just the tip of the iceberg, scientists have tons and tons of evidence to show that the world is about 6.4 billion years old. Radiometric age dating of meteorites (a processes similar to carbon-14 dating) also points to this evidence.

you nailed it... especially here
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
you makes me cry,what a bitty.

Thanks God that you are moving to Canada and hope that god will help all other people to
leave Dubai as you did.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
you makes me cry,what a bitty.

Thanks God that you are moving to Canada and hope that god will help all other people to
leave Dubai as you did.

How, exactly, is this post beneficial? Why not offer support to the OP rather than proving him right that there is no tolerance in this world?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Thank you, I've been wanting to voice my thoughts for so long now, but I can't really do that while living in the Middle East. I am moving to Canada in september to attend University though, hoping I will like it more than here.

Welcome to Canada, even before you get here. I get the 'feeling' you'll like this place.
:)
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Hi Ignite, welcome to RF. that's an interesting introduction and insight.
there are a few issues I'd like to ask you about that you brought up.
I'm Israeli, so this one is of obvious interest to me: you said that people in your country are indoctrinated about Israel. of course I have heard it plenty of times before. but you also brought up the fact about regional lack of justice and if I understood you right, that it doesn't come up as often. so I'd like to ask, how much does the local media and people discuss the injustices committed in the middle east in general? for example its traditional as you said to criticise Israel's actions in regards to the Palestinians, but how much do people in the gulf states discuss the fact that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been expelled from these countries? or how often do they discuss discrimination by the governments in the middle east? how often does the media or people talk about conflicts inside the Middle east or the Muslim world, from Darfur, to Yemen or Iraq?
the world media seems to talk about most of it to some degree or the other, the civil wars in the middle east, dictatorships, human rights organizations discuss the human rights record and lack of free press. how much is Israel used to divert from all these topics?

another thing I like to ask is how much is the public exposed to sciences such as evolution? you said that you feel that you cannot express yourself freely in your country, how far does it go? do you feel that science and progress are repressed? and if they are, in which fields?
 
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Ignite

Member
Hello Caladan,

All I ever see in the local Arabic media is how many people are killed by Israelis every day, I even saw a calendar on my psychology teacher's desk this morning that portrayed a child getting attacked by an Israeli helicopter, this was a cartoon of course. It really disgusts me how we go about our business deporting homosexuals and denying jewish people access to the UAE, but what got to me the most were the red horns every arab seemed to place on your people. Every problem was and is always your fault in their eyes, but can you blame them? I thought the same way for a long long time. Like I was, they are engulfed in their own world and ideology, its often hard not to believe everything you see on TV, the media is smart like that, they only show you one perspective.

You know, its real easy to point fingers, and after people get exposed to a certain ideology for long enough, they start to aggressively believe in it. I have a homosexual student in my school, he is Belgian. During the student-body president elections last year, one of the arab students put his slogan as "God created adam and eve, not adam and steve. Vote straight, vote *****". A teacher in my school is very close to this homosexual student, he is a very nice guy at heart. When she confronted this arab student, he told her there was nothing she could do because being homosexual is against the law. This should speak for itself. Evolution is banned in my school, but I take the IB program, so it is there as an option, I chose to study it myself for the final exams.

I went on a school trip to Kenya about 3 weeks ago, a Palestinian girl was part of the group. During our stay, she asked me what I wanted to be, I told her that if finances allowed it, I would continue to medical school after university and travel africa (Doctors without borders) for 3-4 years after I finish my residency. She asked me why I don't go to Palestine and help the people there. I gave her three reasons:

1. I didn't want to pick sides in a war
2. If I wanted to be a war medic, i'd join the army
3. People in Palestine have the choice to flee the land, people in Africa are dying because they can't afford medication

She spat on my shoe, called me a pig, and insulted my mom (Kuss Umak). We never spoke again. Thats how most arabs feel about Israel in Dubai.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
is that a religion issue or politics one?
What is the relation between religion and the occupation of Israel to Palestine
and the middle east conflict.
 

Ignite

Member
is that a religion issue or politics one?
What is the relation between religion and the occupation of Israel to Palestine
and the middle east conflict.

It is a political one, sorry to deviate from topic, I was just trying to answer the gentleman's question about how people here perceive Israel.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
It is a political one, sorry to deviate from topic, I was just trying to answer the gentleman's question about how people here perceive Israel.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. its always the most interesting getting your questions answered by a first source.
 

Bismillah

Submit
3. People in Palestine have the choice to flee the land, people in Africa are dying because they can't afford medication
That's probably the most pathetic thing I've heard coming from an Arab in a while.
 
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