A message to all believers from an ex-muslim

[Ignite]

Welcome, Ignite.
Very thoughtful OP. I do think there's more to religion than a desire for fairness, though. Have you considered man's need for significance, validation of the status quo or social stability as contributing factors?

Do dress warmly for your move to Canada. I think you'll find the climate rather different from what you're used to.

Thats a fair point, I think that fairness is one of the many reasons religion exists. Its a cocktail of all the things you and I mentioned.

 

[Caladan]

quoting part of the picture and claiming that you made the issue clear doesn't solve the problem. to solve the problem we must find the source.

Israel is one among many, many other democratic, secular and non-muslim majority countries. have you ever asked yourself why arabs feel that way towards Israel and not about all other countries? do they feel that way about Canada? Australia? China? Mongolia?

That's a non sequitur. neither Canada or Australia (or the other nations) are located in the middle east as Israel is, neither of them have been locked in regional conflicts. so your comparison doesn't say much.
however one question that has been avoided by you and other members, is how come if Muslims are genuinely hurt by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not a single Muslim member here (and elsewhere) ever discuss the life of Palestinians in other middle eastern countries? not a single Muslim member here ever said anything about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians which have been expelled in other Arab countries, or the fact that Arab countries have been systematically denying the Palestinians rights. lets face it, both you and I know that the focus on Israel is a special case, after all, if it was injustice you have been worried about, you could voice the same animosity towards the many other middle eastern countries or Muslim groups which have been killing each other and innocent Muslims over the years. one gets the feeling that many Muslims feel its legit for Muslims to kill Muslims.
look at Syria today, over the last year more than 7000 Syrians have been killed inside Syria, in a single year an Arab country meets the death toll of decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. it seems that your countries, insurgents and other elements are causing the death of Muslims much more than Israel ever will.

i can agree with you that pretty much anything displeasing is associated with Israel, like the shark example you mentioned, it sounds just as stupid to me as it does to you, however, you must look at the bigger picture.

And the bigger picture is what? you just admitted it yourself. any irrational propaganda is attributed to one country. that is one grim bigger picture.
the only reason Israel is the target of such animosity is because it is a non Muslim/non Arab country in the middle east, and this fact hurts the sense of pride of many Muslims.
the bigger picture is that the middle east and many parts of the Muslim world have been in turmoil for a long time, and none of this has anything to do with Israel. people are indoctrinated about Israel, while Muslims are being killed and oppressed in their own countries. let me ask you a question, if the world woke up tomorrow and Israel was to be gone from the middle east, would it effect what happens tomorrow in Syria? Yemen? Sudan? Afghanistan? Iraq? Somalia? in the Turkish-Kurdish conflict?
in most of these places the death toll completely dwarves decades and decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. in a single year in any of these parts of the Muslim world thousands of people die. this is the bigger picture.

 

[9Westy9]

me again i have some more time now,

"There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology."

in one of your other posts directed at brother Bismillah you accused him of making assumptions, however he explained his reasoning behind what he said and i agree with him. the reason why i mention this is because from the above statement you have made, and from some other points you have made, i can tell a lot about you, if you want to call it assumption, call it, however, i speak the truth as i see it.

I don't think you can tell a lot about him. Not even I can, because we see other people through our own subjectiveness.

to me it seems that you are a person who doesn't like the situation in which humanity is in at the current time. you don't like how others blame others not knowing their positions and you don't like how there is poverty, evil, etc etc.

to be honest with you no one likes that, however, to say that you had wrong views about things because of islam and that you need to change your 'ideology' and somehow the world will get better is a very ignorant thing to both say and do. since you have mentioned an example of theft, i will mention one that contradicts your 'facts' and views of how we react to such cases. During the reign of Umar bin Al Khattab a man committed theft (he stole food) and was caught afterwards. he was taken in front of Khalif Umar and as the trial was taking place to show evidence that he stole and to cut off his hand from the wrist, it was made clear that the man stole because he was poor and had no money to buy food. Umar freed him because it is the duty of the government to provide for the poor and needy.

yet Allah is powerless to step in and help all the suffering people in the world. Good enough reason to leave the faith IMO

if you are going to blame muslims and islam about being unjust and evil ("Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us") then you need to do a little more study because unless i am mistaken, it was the same man who came up with Evolution that said white man is superior to all other races. he viewed black people as the most inferior race among all. and it was these same stupid scientists who thought that they found a living being who was a transitional form of ape to human. look up Ota Benga. and one things i sure am not mistaken about Islam called all people equal no matter of race or gender.

That's why secular society is so much better. It's a society of equality, or at least it should be. Wheras there are countries that still kill people for simply leaving a religion.

moreover, you need to study quite a lot about islam, many of the things you have mentioned are quite basics, however, since you have mentioned them it tells me you don't have much islamic knowledge. but since you left islam i guess you're not going to take this part of advice from me.

i don't think i need to or should reply to the rest of your post, i hope my replies are of help to you.

This just strikes me as comedic. "not much knowledge of Islam" despite the fact he's lived in an Islamic country for most of his like and I guess has Islamic parents. He's also been a Muslim most of his life yet you still say he has little knowledge of Islam. Seems to me that the "basics" he seems unable to understand aren't as basic as you think.

 

[Gharib]

That's a non sequitur. neither Canada or Australia (or the other nations) are located in the middle east as Israel is, neither of them have been locked in regional conflicts. so your comparison doesn't say much.

the US is not in the middle east, do most muslims hate the US government just as much as that of Israel? yes they do. is my above argument non sequitur anymore? no it is not. other than these 2 countries are there any others which muslims feel strongly against in the same way? no there are not.

however one question that has been avoided by you and other members, is how come if Muslims are genuinely hurt by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not a single Muslim member here (and elsewhere) ever discuss the life of Palestinians in other middle eastern countries? not a single Muslim member here ever said anything about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians which have been expelled in other Arab countries, or the fact that Arab countries have been systematically denying the Palestinians rights. lets face it, both you and I know that the focus on Israel is a special case, after all, if it was injustice you have been worried about, you could voice the same animosity towards the many other middle eastern countries or Muslim groups which have been killing each other and innocent Muslims over the years. one gets the feeling that many Muslims feel its legit for Muslims to kill Muslims.

like i have mentioned before, seek to find the source of something before you jump to conclusions. if you were in my position would it be better to seek justice for Palestinians who are expelled from other arab countries or would it be better to seek justice and offer help to Palestinians who are being killed in their homes by an oppressive nation? i am curious as to how you answer this question. just so you know mentioning examples like "it's ok for muslims to kill other muslims why should this be any different" won't cut it. that is a different issue. if you want to discuss that then that is a different topic from the Israel-Palestine conflict.

as for me not having answered your question above, please do remind me in which thread you have asked me that question and i will answer it. i don't remember you having asked me that question.

with regards to the treatment of Palestinians in other countries, i can tell you that those government as just as pathetic as yours and that of Mubarak and Asad. it took Egypt a whole generation to rid itself of Mubarak, you will see very soon what improvements and progress Egypt will make once the Muslim Brotherhood had full power. the same will happen to all oppressive arab government in the near future along with Israel.

and yes the Israel focus is a special case, you are honest when you want to be i can tell you that. it is not right for any nation or people who lack a place they can call their own to go and take it from someone else. Maybe the children of Israel did live once in that part of the middle east just as muslims lived in many other countries of the world as well as that place and still do to this day, does it make it right for muslims to cry a river and play the victim card and terrorize innocent people? no it doesn't, the people of Israel are no exception.

does that answer your question?

 

[Gharib]

And the bigger picture is what? you just admitted it yourself. any irrational propaganda is attributed to one country. that is one grim bigger picture.
the only reason Israel is the target of such animosity is because it is a non Muslim/non Arab country in the middle east, and this fact hurts the sense of pride of many Muslims.
the bigger picture is that the middle east and many parts of the Muslim world have been in turmoil for a long time, and none of this has anything to do with Israel. people are indoctrinated about Israel, while Muslims are being killed and oppressed in their own countries. let me ask you a question, if the world woke up tomorrow and Israel was to be gone from the middle east, would it effect what happens tomorrow in Syria? Yemen? Sudan? Afghanistan? Iraq? Somalia? in the Turkish-Kurdish conflict?
in most of these places the death toll completely dwarves decades and decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. in a single year in any of these parts of the Muslim world thousands of people die. this is the bigger picture.

That's a non sequitur - your own words.

 

[Ignite]

I would be ashamed to call Egypt my home if the Muslim brotherhood took power, I wouldn't want to live anywhere that resembles the likes of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

 

[Gharib]

I would be ashamed to call Egypt my home if the Muslim brotherhood took power, I wouldn't want to live anywhere that resembles the likes of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

i would trade nationalities with you if that was possible. you can come live where i do and i could go live where you do. i wish i could have a Saudi or Egyptian passport and nationality. one day insha Allah.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ignite,

Your have ignited the fire within!
A positive sign of a living , kicking being!
Best wishes!

Love & rgds

 

[Caladan]

the US is not in the middle east, do most muslims hate the US government just as much as that of Israel? yes they do. is my above argument non sequitur anymore? no it is not. other than these 2 countries are there any others which muslims feel strongly against in the same way? no there are not.

Another non sequitur. whenever a western nation for whatever reason gets involved in a Muslim issue, no matter how inane it seems to the rest of us. for a moment that nation becomes the target of all Muslim frustrations. evidence to this is that western embassies have been burned and people have been killed for the trivial affair of publishing cartoons in western European newspapers.
lets face it. Israel is the source of Muslim indoctrination because it is a non-Muslim country. after all, many other middle easterners and Muslims have been locked in conflicts and huge atrocities, but the level of indoctrination about these other elements is no where near the indoctrination many Muslims experience about Israel.

like i have mentioned before, seek to find the source of something before you jump to conclusions. if you were in my position would it be better to seek justice for Palestinians who are expelled from other arab countries or would it be better to seek justice and offer help to Palestinians who are being killed in their homes by an oppressive nation?

So if I understand you correct. it is OK for Arabs in the gulf in recent years to have expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians? it is OK that in recent years Palestinians have been contained in refugee camps without basic rights in Arab countries? this is your position?
again you are admitting that so long as the injustice is kept inside the Muslim world, its easy to sweep it under the rug, and never discuss it before the world.

with regards to the treatment of Palestinians in other countries, i can tell you that those government as just as pathetic as yours and that of Mubarak and Asad.

If you think that the Israeli government or political system is anything to compare to those Arab governments that you discuss, you have no idea what you are talking about.
look at Israel and look at these dystopian regimes around Israel. Israel is possibly the only nation in the region which did not experience revolutions, civil wars, or unparalleled discrimination against its citizens. the Israeli government gave voting rights for Arab women long before many of the Arab governments even considered it, Israel is possibly the only nation which practices a multi-party political system in the region, it is the only country in the region which makes progress on GLBT rights. there is nothing to compare to Arab governments or countries, and you are perfectly aware of that.

it took Egypt a whole generation to rid itself of Mubarak, you will see very soon what improvements and progress Egypt will make once the Muslim Brotherhood had full power. the same will happen to all oppressive arab government in the near future along with Israel.

Our new Egyptian member above you does not seem to share the sentiments. in fact MANY Egyptians are saying the exact same thing. they say that the Brotherhood has hijacked their revolution. that Egyptian women have remained without rights, and that the more progressive aspects that were promoted by the revolution are not confronted for the simple reason, that the Muslim Brotherhood only took a SMALL part in the revolution, the sad reality for those young Egyptians who demonstrated everyday is that the Brotherhood stole the fruits of their labour!

does that answer your question?

I was hoping Muslim members could do better, to be honest.

 

[Ignite]

i would trade nationalities with you if that was possible. you can come live where i do and i could go live where you do. i wish i could have a Saudi or Egyptian passport and nationality. one day insha Allah.

My passport is American.

 

[ankarali]

Thank you to share your ideas ex-muslim, You are free to choose your religion. But if you see a muslim or a jewish who killed a man you can't say all muslims or all jewish do the same. I don't care about the behaviours of men me I look and read the book (Qoran, Bible etc.) and decide after

 

[waitasec]

lets face it, both you and I know that the focus on Israel is a special case, after all, if it was injustice you have been worried about, you could voice the same animosity towards the many other middle eastern countries or Muslim groups which have been killing each other and innocent Muslims over the years. one gets the feeling that many Muslims feel its legit for Muslims to kill Muslims.
look at Syria today, over the last year more than 7000 Syrians have been killed inside Syria, in a single year an Arab country meets the death toll of decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. it seems that your countries, insurgents and other elements are causing the death of Muslims much more than Israel ever will.

something to consider indeed...

 

[Rational_Mind]

I think it is very disappointing to see Muslims support the conduct of many countries in the Middle East. Please go back and learn how Muslims states operated in the Khilafat of the four rightly guided Khalifs (Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra), Hazrat Umar (ra), Hazrat Uthman (ra), and Hazrat Ali (ra)). Also look at the era earlier since Spain was the center of Islamic power. You will find none of these countries have anything close to that pure Islamic conduct. Do not blindly justify the conduct of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Jordan, and Libya. They follow greed and only practice Islam as a complete ritual. As for Israel, their conduct is not pure either. Both sides have to admit their failures. How muslims in these countries treat other muslim sects and minorities is completely unjustified and cruel. How Israel formed was also completely unjustified and cruel. There is no need to dispute this issue further.

Also I think Muslims should really study the Quran more openly and they will learn that it clearly describes evolution.

And He has created you in different stages and different forms (71:15)

Maybe start here on evolution.

 

[Gharib]

Also I think Muslims should really study the Quran more openly and they will learn that it clearly describes evolution.

And He has created you in different stages and different forms (71:15)

in many other verses the 'different stages' refers to the stages in the womb of the mother. the commentary of Ibn Kathir regarding this verse states this:

While He has created you (in) Atwar (stages). [71:14]

It has been said that this means from a drop of sperm, then from a hanging clot, then from a lump of flesh.
Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, Yahya bin Rafi`, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd, all said this.

http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir Ibn Kathir/PDF/071 Nuh.pdf

 

[Gharib]

My passport is American.

oh i thought you had an Egyptian passport or a United Emirates passport.

 

[Gharib]

@ Caladan

call my post what ever you want i can say the same about your arguments, you try to justify Israels actions by the actions of others and what they have done in the past or what they do at the present. you didn't answer my question so all your post is non sequitur. throughout you keep mentioning the 'atrocities' muslims face by other countries and even other muslims (your example of Syria) you can write a whole book mentioning such examples however it doesn't justify Israels actions of killing innocent civilians and in no way answers my question which i asked and you dodged.

as for the treatment of Palestinians in other countries, they wouldn't be in that situation if they weren't trying to get away from their oppressive neighbor, who claims it gives them rights and so in some way that should make up for the killing of innocents. no muslim as well as non-muslim agrees to what the Palestinians are going through either at the hands of Israel or at the hands of their Arab neighbors. however, you use that example to justify the actions of Israel, it somehow makes it ok to kill innocent people because others of their own race do not like them and you think that doesn't make Israel like the former government of of Gaddafi, Mubarak and that of Asad? you are kidding yourself.

in regards to Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood, it was you who made the following statement when an answer that was convenient to you was given to your question:

"its always the most interesting getting your questions answered by a first source."

however, i don't believe you to be such a honest person as to open a thread and ask those in this forum who are from Egypt what they think about the Muslim Brotherhood and then accept the view of the majority, your above statement only applies so long as the answer is convenient to you. please do prove me wrong if i am lying.

 

[waitasec]

Thank you to share your ideas ex-muslim, You are free to choose your religion. But if you see a muslim or a jewish who killed a man you can't say all muslims or all jewish do the same. I don't care about the behaviours of men me I look and read the book (Qoran, Bible etc.) and decide after

that is an interesting take.

what is the point of any religion if it is ultimately up to the individual to decide what is being said is worth considering?

 

[Rational_Mind]

in many other verses the 'different stages' refers to the stages in the womb of the mother. the commentary of Ibn Kathir regarding this verse states this:

While He has created you (in) Atwar (stages). [71:14]

It has been said that this means from a drop of sperm, then from a hanging clot, then from a lump of flesh.
Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, Yahya bin Rafi`, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd, all said this.

http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir Ibn Kathir/PDF/071 Nuh.pdf

Please go to the link I posted and read a bit. If you want to discuss this out should be out of this thread. Also look at how science shows process of evolution in embryo stages. Maybe that will help you understand a bit of the depth and heavy meaning of the verse. Quran will continue to enlighten in generations to come it has prophecies and explanations that cannot be denied because one commentator did not have the capacity our knowledge to understand at that time. Maybe this will help you understand the beauty of the Quran.

 

[YmirGF]

Thank you, I've been wanting to voice my thoughts for so long now, but I can't really do that while living in the Middle East. I am moving to Canada in september to attend University though, hoping I will like it more than here.

I am quite impressed, so far, but would urge caution in what you choose to write on the Internet until you have moved to the relative safety of Canada. Use the intervening time to simply observe, so that you never forget. And let me be the first Canadian to say to you, "Welcome home!"

Welcome to Canada, even before you get here. I get the 'feeling' you'll like this place.

Hehe. OK, let me be the second to welcome you home.

 

[Gharib]

Please go to the link I posted and read a bit. If you want to discuss this out should be out of this thread. Also look at how science shows process of evolution in embryo stages. Maybe that will help you understand a bit of the depth and heavy meaning of the verse. Quran will continue to enlighten in generations to come it has prophecies and explanations that cannot be denied because one commentator did not have the capacity our knowledge to understand at that time. Maybe this will help you understand the beauty of the Quran.

but at the time no one knew how the embryo formed nor the stages it underwent, he was speaking with what knowledge the Prophet peace be upon him had left.

in order to understand the Qur'an and it's verses one must look and find the historical accounts as to why a particular verse was revealed, after having gathered that information it becomes clear what the verse means and does it refer to what Ibn Kathir says or what the author of the book in your link says.

i mean no disrespect but i too can cite many verses so as to back up a claim that is not islamic, it is easy to make a verse mean what it shouldn't by not posting or studying it's history, thats the reason why i posted the commentary of Ibn kathir.

if you gather all those verses of similar wording about stages and read their commentary it will make more sense. if you want to discuss this further then let me know i will open a new thread.