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A message to all believers from an ex-muslim

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
but at the time no one knew how the embryo formed nor the stages it underwent, he was speaking with what knowledge the Prophet peace be upon him had left.

in order to understand the Qur'an and it's verses one must look and find the historical accounts as to why a particular verse was revealed, after having gathered that information it becomes clear what the verse means and does it refer to what Ibn Kathir says or what the author of the book in your link says.

i mean no disrespect but i too can cite many verses so as to back up a claim that is not islamic, it is easy to make a verse mean what it shouldn't by not posting or studying it's history, thats the reason why i posted the commentary of Ibn kathir.

if you gather all those verses of similar wording about stages and read their commentary it will make more sense. if you want to discuss this further then let me know i will open a new thread.

I agree that it refers to fetal development as described in other verses. It also refers to development of man (evolution), you can also note that the focus of the first ten verses of the chapter that deal with the spiritual development of man. I hope you understand that one of the significant signs of the Quran is the ability for it to describe the most complex most simply in least terms. One can sit and ponder on a verse and see that it is not like any other human writing, it will always astonish seekers of truth over and over again.

I hope you don't mentally limit Quran to the past as you can see that it is a vast ocean of knowledge that is to enlighten man till the day of judgement. Past renowned scholars understood to the best of their capability. I hope you can spend some time reading on evolution and seeing if it does or does not conform with the Quran. I have posted an excellent starting point, the book also contains much more on the topic.

Again, I highly encourage you to keep an open mind and fairly evaluate your understanding.
 

Ignite

Member
I would like to delete this, I no longer feel this way anymore and am now Muslim again. We are not animals, we are humans, the thing that separates humans from animals is humanity. Humanity is what religion teaches us to have.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I would like to delete this, I no longer feel this way anymore and am now Muslim again. We are not animals, we are humans, the thing that separates humans from animals is humanity. Humanity is what religion teaches us to have.

I went back to read your updated post. I was actually wondering if you are willing to share what convinced you in the ends. May Allah (swt) continue to guide you. I feel that your faith will be stronger as you have now developed it on your own rather then just holding onto your parents. This is very important to become a good Muslim, to know why you are Muslim rather then knowing you are Muslim because your parents were Muslims.

Maybe you could share through PM if you don't want to go with public posts.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I would like to delete this, I no longer feel this way anymore and am now Muslim again. We are not animals, we are humans, the thing that separates humans from animals is humanity. Humanity is what religion teaches us to have.

Really,in what way?, i don't feel the brotherly love of being damned for eternity for example.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
DavyCrockett2003 said:
Anyway, I wanted to suggest that science and faith are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Why does it have to be a choice? How is it that just because evolution is true religion is false?

Evolution - and every other fields and branches in science - doesn't prove religion to be "false"...religion is just simply "irrelevant".

They are irrelevant because science only deal with what are observable, and how they can be explained through such observation (including testable evidences).

(Of course, there are some fields and theories in science that don't require evidences or experiments, such theoretical physics, like M-Theory of super string theory, which uses solely mathematical models and abstraction instead of evidences. However, most fields in science fall under the "experimental" (eg observations, evidences, testings), including evolutionary biology. But I digress.

Evolution is simply religion-neutral, as all scientific fields should be. Evolution is falsifiable, therefore it is scientific. Religion is not (falsifiable), and never will be, simply because as these religious people believe in deities (theism) and spirits (for those non-theistic religions), religions, deities and spirits are not falsifiable. Religion rely on faith not evidences.

Religion should never be treated like science. It is only when people trying to mix the two together (like creationism or intelligent design with science) that I will criticize religious people. Creationism (especially those who believe in "creation science") and ID...as well those who quote verse(s) and interpret these verses to be "scientific" as some Christians and Muslims do...are nothing more than PSEUDOSCIENCE. It is these types of people that often misrepresent science through either their ignorance or worse, deliberate deceptions that I have problem with.

I have no problem whatsoever with people having personal belief...only people who tried to mix their religions with science.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Evolution - and every other fields and branches in science - doesn't prove religion to be "false"...religion is just simply "irrelevant".

They are irrelevant because science only deal with what are observable, and how they can be explained through such observation (including testable evidences).

(Of course, there are some fields and theories in science that don't require evidences or experiments, such theoretical physics, like M-Theory of super string theory, which uses solely mathematical models and abstraction instead of evidences. However, most fields in science fall under the "experimental" (eg observations, evidences, testings), including evolutionary biology. But I digress.

Evolution is simply religion-neutral, as all scientific fields should be. Evolution is falsifiable, therefore it is scientific. Religion is not (falsifiable), and never will be, simply because as these religious people believe in deities (theism) and spirits (for those non-theistic religions), religions, deities and spirits are not falsifiable. Religion rely on faith not evidences.

Religion should never be treated like science. It is only when people trying to mix the two together (like creationism or intelligent design with science) that I will criticize religious people. Creationism (especially those who believe in "creation science") and ID...as well those who quote verse(s) and interpret these verses to be "scientific" as some Christians and Muslims do...are nothing more than PSEUDOSCIENCE. It is these types of people that often misrepresent science through either their ignorance or worse, deliberate deceptions that I have problem with.

I have no problem whatsoever with people having personal belief...only people who tried to mix their religions with science.

Religious scriptures are not a book of science as you stated. Although sometimes it is useful to reflect and see if your scriptures is scientifically accurate. If it is not it would conflict with an all knowledgeable creator.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
rational mind said:
Religious scriptures are not a book of science as you stated. Although sometimes it is useful to reflect and see if your scriptures is scientifically accurate. If it is not it would conflict with an all knowledgeable creator.

It would be useful, if the verses contained more detailed explanations than just a verse or two. Or that the verses contained mathematical equations confirmed by today's science.

Whether it be bible or Quran, both of them are utterly useless.

The verses, which some Muslims deemed them to be "scientific", not only translated into English, that would have different context, from translation to translation, they can be interpret in any way a Muslim like, sometimes deliberately twist the meaning of the verses that they are supposed to revere...and for the sake of turning their scriptures into science.

Sorry, but I have no respect for such interpretations, nor for those interpreters...like that of the televangelist Zakir Naik. It is unbelievable that he has so many followers, including some members here, repeating the same garbage in the science and religion forum.

Many of my criticisms toward Islam, is that a number of Muslims followed Naik's interpretation, of lies and misinterpretations of both science and Islam, but also for his archaic attitude towards women.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
MY STORY

I'd like to start off my 'religious' story by telling you I am currently 18 years old, I live in and have lived in Dubai all my life. I was brought up a Muslim, I followed it blindly till a day came along that changed my life forever. I am not very proud of what I have done in the past mind you, but I started (edited by staff).

True to tradition, I was, as a child, indoctrinated with the ideology that Israel was the root of all evil. I lived by this fact for almost 14 years of my life. When I was 13, a number of shark attacks terrorized the coastal haven of Sharm El-Sheikh in Egypt. My grandmother promptly concluded that Israeli soldiers had exposed this shark to a hormone that clouded its judgment. The Arabic media, uneager to refute this line of thinking, dissected all the perceived ethical violations committed by Israel with the aid of the United States. One day, however, I came across graffiti etched onto a roundabout on my way to school; it read, “Hate breeds hate,” the three words that forever changed my view of world politics. I hurried home that day and accessed the CNN website. Scrolling to the US politics section, I was baffled. It immediately became clear to me that no one was truly innocent: we were the reagents of a potentially volatile reaction. As a result, I refused to accept media portrayals as fact, deciding that unjustified hate was the bane of world peace. There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology.

When I sobered up I began to think to myself: So what about this God? Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us? I thought he loved us! I am not gay, but this is one of the many things that didn't click for me. What if my parents never had sex? Isn't that better? Does he encourage people to procreate so he can send them to 'Hell'? And what about those Atheists and Christians that do so much good for the world? What about Einstein, Fritz Haber, Steven Hawkings, Mother Teresa, and so many others, is he going to send them straight to hell because they just could not believe? Is he going to send Hindu's to hell because they were born into Hinduism? If he is all understanding, then he would understand that people don't chose what they truly believe, is that really their fault? If a human understands that is unfair treatment, shouldn't a higher power such as himself already know that? And what about stem cell research and abortion, if in his case a person would go straight to heaven if its still a baby, isn't the mother just being utilitarian? Is is right to encourage the suffering of fully developed individuals to save a couple of undeveloped cells that could potentially be born, and even then probably go to hell? Its all such ********, I am Agnostic, I think that there probably isn't, but if there is a God, he won't put people in Hell.

MY NEW PHILOSOPHY

99% of the Saudi Arabian population is muslim, 80% of india's population is Hindu, and more often than not, the religion of the persons parents will be the same as the person himself. So to evaluate the theory that God exists would be to assume God is all knowing. If God is all knowing then he knows what family he is putting you in, he also knows what religion you will be, what pain you will cause, and what religion you will choose to be. For argument's sake, I'm going to stick with the Judaic-Christian God. There are 2 billion Christians in the world, 1.6 billion muslims, and 1.5 million Jews. Now this means that at best, God created 1.75 billion individuals to punish, at worst, 3.6 billion people. This, by the way, is not taking into consideration the rest of the human population. People might also say that God will punish people who commit evil, I truly flinch and stutter when I hear or see people who say this. People have this tendency to forget that other humans are souls with lives, pasts, emotions, and conciseness just like ourselves. We are disgusted by murder and rape (I hope), yet other individuals might be able to justify it to themselves. Just like us, no human wants to truly be evil, there is always a context to every behavior. A pedophile was most likely molested at a young age, we can cringe and stutter all we want, but we will never understand what they go through. It is easy to sit here and judge, but there is a reason as to why we are so obsessed with the concept of 'fair'. A criminal will say its not 'fair' that he watched his family crash and burn in poverty while others would live in sublime wealth, so he robs a grocery or a 7/11. What do we see? We see a bad man who can't get a job, maybe he was too busy looking after his crack-head mom to get a job, maybe the "God" that you all love so dearly never gave him the intelligence he needed to legally break free from the circle of poverty and hunger. We sit in our comfortable chairs and beds, discuss intellectual topics on forums, and judge everyone because we are the all high and mighty, yet what is not understood is that just like we would not do anything for the sake of pure evil, others wouldn't either.

I think that the reason religion exists is because of this obsession we have with 'fairness'. It is part of our human nature, we want everything to be fair. People believe in God because they believe it will provide the ultimate judgement, the ultimate decision of who deprived us of what is fair. What we don't understand is all the things people do are things that we would also probably do under the same situational factors.

EVOLUTION

I'd like to end with a little talk about evolution, because it makes me angry when people say "There is not enough evidence". Fossiles, although substantial, are not the only piece of evidence of evolution. If you visit the natural history museum, you will see that there are mountains of bones and statures of animals that show a clear transition from one phase to another. The theory of evolution by natural selection does not debunk creationism, it is creationism that debunks evolution. The difference is, one has stockpiles of scientific evidence, while the other has an imaginary friend who sent you here to determine whether you are naughty or nice. Have you ever heard of the term "Carbon-14 dating"? Carbon-14 is an isotope of carbon that has an extraordinarily long lifespan (50,000 years ±5,000), it is found in organic corpses and bones that are to be dated back. Scientists determine the "half-life" of the carbon-14 to see exactly how old an organic corpse is. This is just one of the many things that tell us the earth is much older than the bible says it is. From carbon dating, we can also see that the existence of very similar species were often living in much different timeframes from one another. With much further research, it was deduced that many of the physical changes that we can now see resulted from environmental changes in the time-frame the species lived in. This is just the tip of the iceberg, scientists have tons and tons of evidence to show that the world is about 6.4 billion years old. Radiometric age dating of meteorites (a processes similar to carbon-14 dating) also points to this evidence.

I assume from your post that your former faith (Islam?) teaches that God tortures people in hell. Many professed "Christians" believe this also. Would it surprise you to learn that the Bible does not teach such a thing? (Romans 6:23)
On the matter of evolution, I think it is hard for a person to see through the fog created by the propaganda spewed everywhere by ToE advocates. Again, it may surprise you to learn those carefully placed 'transitions' are as scientist Francis Hitching in his book The Neck of the Giraffe writes: “When you look for links between major groups of animals, they simply aren’t there.”
As to Carbon-14 dating, there are several major problems with this dating method. The most serious fault in radiocarbon dating is the assumption that the carbon 14 in the atmosphere has never changed over time. Not a same assumption, in my opinion.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
rusra02 said:
On the matter of evolution, I think it is hard for a person to see through the fog created by the propaganda spewed everywhere by ToE advocates. Again, it may surprise you to learn those carefully placed 'transitions' are as scientist Francis Hitching in his book The Neck of the Giraffe writes: “When you look for links between major groups of animals, they simply aren’t there.”
As to Carbon-14 dating, there are several major problems with this dating method. The most serious fault in radiocarbon dating is the assumption that the carbon 14 in the atmosphere has never changed over time. Not a same assumption, in my opinion.

Oh, c'mon man.

HITCHING? :eek: Seriously? :biglaugh:

Surely you can find a real scientist. Hitching is nothing more than pseudoscience quack, who believed in Ley lines, dowsy and psychic.

Surely, you don't expect many of us would take what Hitching write seriously, do you?

Hitching is just as bad as Ken Ham and Kent Hovind when it come to science.
 

RedJamaX

Active Member
Oh, c'mon man.

HITCHING? :eek: Seriously? :biglaugh:

Surely you can find a real scientist. Hitching is nothing more than pseudoscience quack, who believed in Ley lines, dowsy and psychic.

Surely, you don't expect many of us would take what Hitching write seriously, do you?

Hitching is just as bad as Ken Ham and Kent Hovind when it come to science.


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