A message to all believers from an ex-muslim

[Bismillah]

It's quite galling to hear the privileged Khaliji talking about poverty in Africa and then creating a false dichotomy and damning Palestinians to what exile from their ancestral homeland?

 

[9Westy9]

It's quite galling to hear the privileged Khaliji talking about poverty in Africa and then creating a false dichotomy and damning Palestinians to what exile from their ancestral homeland?

fair point

 

[idea]

MY STORY

Dubai has a few Americans & others there working for Exxon and the like, I always thought of it as a more progressive place, a little oasis out there, but perhaps I'm wrong?

It's hard, there are always two sides to a story - hate breeds hate, that's for sure. So good that everyone has the internet now, and can read more than just one side of a story.

I've always thought that belief cannot just be inherited (I did not inherit my parents' beliefs). There's a saying "God doesn't have any grandchildren, only sons and daughters". You have to be first generation - no such thing as borrowed light.

I think that's cool you are researching everything, and thinking for yourself, taking an honest look - or as honest as you can find at least. The only thing I would add, is don't close the "God" door so fast! Creation means a lot of different things to different people - evolution does not mean that God doesn't exist, it just means we are learning more about the creation process. Look for the good - teachings of love/sacrifice/loyalty/faith/kindness/hope - there is so much good that religion has to offer - separate the tares from the wheat, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and all that.

welcome to RF!

 

[Sahar]

It's quite galling to hear the privileged Khaliji talking about poverty in Africa and then creating a false dichotomy and damning Palestinians to what exile from their ancestral homeland?

Being in Dubai doesn't necessarily mean the person is an Arab. But it's interesting that people who come with determined anti-Islamic propaganda are usually so supportive of Israel at the same time, what is more interesting the nice entry they come with "ex-Muslim", "Murtadd", and now "Muslim turned Atheist", I don't know why the obsession with the "murtad" part...

Anyway, if hallucinations can be that much inspiring, then who am I to object?!

:sarcastic

 

[Bismillah]

I think it's because as a Muslim, Islam is the single most important factor dominating my life. Without it I would be at a loss and my life would feel like a void, it doesn't seem surprising then that even when I leave Islam, it would continue to play a part in my life.

 

[Sahar]

I think it's because as a Muslim, Islam is the single most important factor dominating my life. Without it I would be at a loss and my life would feel like a void, it doesn't seem surprising then that even when I leave Islam, it would continue to play a part in my life.

You are right.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

MY STORY

I'd like to start off my 'religious' story by telling you I am currently 18 years old, I live in and have lived in Dubai all my life. I was brought up a Muslim, I followed it blindly till a day came along that changed my life forever. I am not very proud of what I have done in the past mind you, but I started (edited by staff).

True to tradition, I was, as a child, indoctrinated with the ideology that Israel was the root of all evil. I lived by this fact for almost 14 years of my life. When I was 13, a number of shark attacks terrorized the coastal haven of Sharm El-Sheikh in Egypt. My grandmother promptly concluded that Israeli soldiers had exposed this shark to a hormone that clouded its judgment. The Arabic media, uneager to refute this line of thinking, dissected all the perceived ethical violations committed by Israel with the aid of the United States. One day, however, I came across graffiti etched onto a roundabout on my way to school; it read, “Hate breeds hate,” the three words that forever changed my view of world politics. I hurried home that day and accessed the CNN website. Scrolling to the US politics section, I was baffled. It immediately became clear to me that no one was truly innocent: we were the reagents of a potentially volatile reaction. As a result, I refused to accept media portrayals as fact, deciding that unjustified hate was the bane of world peace. There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology.

When I sobered up I began to think to myself: So what about this God? Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us? I thought he loved us! I am not gay, but this is one of the many things that didn't click for me. What if my parents never had sex? Isn't that better? Does he encourage people to procreate so he can send them to 'Hell'? And what about those Atheists and Christians that do so much good for the world? What about Einstein, Fritz Haber, Steven Hawkings, Mother Teresa, and so many others, is he going to send them straight to hell because they just could not believe? Is he going to send Hindu's to hell because they were born into Hinduism? If he is all understanding, then he would understand that people don't chose what they truly believe, is that really their fault? If a human understands that is unfair treatment, shouldn't a higher power such as himself already know that? And what about stem cell research and abortion, if in his case a person would go straight to heaven if its still a baby, isn't the mother just being utilitarian? Is is right to encourage the suffering of fully developed individuals to save a couple of undeveloped cells that could potentially be born, and even then probably go to hell? Its all such ********, I am Agnostic, I think that there probably isn't, but if there is a God, he won't put people in Hell.

MY NEW PHILOSOPHY

99% of the Saudi Arabian population is muslim, 80% of india's population is Hindu, and more often than not, the religion of the persons parents will be the same as the person himself. So to evaluate the theory that God exists would be to assume God is all knowing. If God is all knowing then he knows what family he is putting you in, he also knows what religion you will be, what pain you will cause, and what religion you will choose to be. For argument's sake, I'm going to stick with the Judaic-Christian God. There are 2 billion Christians in the world, 1.6 billion muslims, and 1.5 million Jews. Now this means that at best, God created 1.75 billion individuals to punish, at worst, 3.6 billion people. This, by the way, is not taking into consideration the rest of the human population. People might also say that God will punish people who commit evil, I truly flinch and stutter when I hear or see people who say this. People have this tendency to forget that other humans are souls with lives, pasts, emotions, and conciseness just like ourselves. We are disgusted by murder and rape (I hope), yet other individuals might be able to justify it to themselves. Just like us, no human wants to truly be evil, there is always a context to every behavior. A pedophile was most likely molested at a young age, we can cringe and stutter all we want, but we will never understand what they go through. It is easy to sit here and judge, but there is a reason as to why we are so obsessed with the concept of 'fair'. A criminal will say its not 'fair' that he watched his family crash and burn in poverty while others would live in sublime wealth, so he robs a grocery or a 7/11. What do we see? We see a bad man who can't get a job, maybe he was too busy looking after his crack-head mom to get a job, maybe the "God" that you all love so dearly never gave him the intelligence he needed to legally break free from the circle of poverty and hunger. We sit in our comfortable chairs and beds, discuss intellectual topics on forums, and judge everyone because we are the all high and mighty, yet what is not understood is that just like we would not do anything for the sake of pure evil, others wouldn't either.

I think that the reason religion exists is because of this obsession we have with 'fairness'. It is part of our human nature, we want everything to be fair. People believe in God because they believe it will provide the ultimate judgement, the ultimate decision of who deprived us of what is fair. What we don't understand is all the things people do are things that we would also probably do under the same situational factors.

EVOLUTION

I'd like to end with a little talk about evolution, because it makes me angry when people say "There is not enough evidence". Fossiles, although substantial, are not the only piece of evidence of evolution. If you visit the natural history museum, you will see that there are mountains of bones and statures of animals that show a clear transition from one phase to another. The theory of evolution by natural selection does not debunk creationism, it is creationism that debunks evolution. The difference is, one has stockpiles of scientific evidence, while the other has an imaginary friend who sent you here to determine whether you are naughty or nice. Have you ever heard of the term "Carbon-14 dating"? Carbon-14 is an isotope of carbon that has an extraordinarily long lifespan (50,000 years ±5,000), it is found in organic corpses and bones that are to be dated back. Scientists determine the "half-life" of the carbon-14 to see exactly how old an organic corpse is. This is just one of the many things that tell us the earth is much older than the bible says it is. From carbon dating, we can also see that the existence of very similar species were often living in much different timeframes from one another. With much further research, it was deduced that many of the physical changes that we can now see resulted from environmental changes in the time-frame the species lived in. This is just the tip of the iceberg, scientists have tons and tons of evidence to show that the world is about 6.4 billion years old. Radiometric age dating of meteorites (a processes similar to carbon-14 dating) also points to this evidence.

Hi. Awesome post. More awesome is the way you have looked at the world around you and figured out so much. "Hate breeds hate..." Powerful.

Anyway, I wanted to suggest that science and faith are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Why does it have to be a choice? How is it that just because evolution is true religion is false? Sure, it is easy to see that there are a lot of bogus and false things mixed into the various world religions, but there is also a great deal of good.

My opinion is that any truth in a religion is manifested by the lives of the people applying it. Religious truth improves the lives of those who live it and causes them to be more loving, compassionate, happier, purposeful, peaceful, etc. There is a great deal to be learned from the great moral teachers of history.

Anyway, welcome and I am happy to hear of your remarkable story. Love and peace.

 

[Ignite]

It's quite galling to hear the privileged Khaliji talking about poverty in Africa and then creating a false dichotomy and damning Palestinians to what exile from their ancestral homeland?

Please don't try to act like you know me, and don't judge my life before you even look at my face. First of all, I am not from the gulf, I am Egyptian. Egyptians in Dubai are treated pretty badly, there is a lot of racial and cultural discrimination in this country. You're asking me what I know about poverty? We built 3 school toilets when we were in Kenya, with our own hands. We taught the children english and provided them a meal for the day, the smile on their faces was worth more than a million dollars. I'm not damning anyone, all i'm saying is that we should stop hating people so we can stop being hated.

I really don't like the way you promptly assume so much when you know so little.

 

[Me Myself]

I hope the very best for you.

Welcome to the forum and blessings :namaste

 

[Gharib]

hello Ignite, i am very sad to hear about you leaving the fold of islam. it is clear from your post that you have great understanding of some things, however, you lack to understand the basics of some other things. i hope you don't mind me replying to some of the points you have mentioned.

"When I was 13, a number of shark attacks terrorized the coastal haven of Sharm El-Sheikh in Egypt. My grandmother promptly concluded that Israeli soldiers had exposed this shark to a hormone that clouded its judgment."

those people who have such thinking are weak in faith. nothing happens without the will of Allah, surely your grandmother wouldn't blame Allah for any evil that occurs, so to say what she has is to speak out of ignorance, i don't mean to be rude but i just want to explain the matter. many people, muslim or not are affected greatly by their societies and the places where they live in. for example if your family lived in a society of multiculturalism where you meet other people who are non-muslims yet are very nice in character and even exceed many muslims through their behaviour and conduct such claims about blaming a nation for drugging sharks would not exist. seeing that you understand this and some of your family members don't it is you who has to make dawah (preaching) to them regarding the matter and explain how they are wrong in their views. i have been through similar situations myself, i have had to constantly go against the thinking of many people where i have been singled out regarding the matter, Alhamdulilah though i have made good progress, it is not easy to change the thinking of people when they have believed in something for so long. it is quite difficult to prevent people from committing shirk who aren't aware that they are committing it. to this day many people think that i am always against them for wanting what is good for them but they will see the real picture one day insha Allah.

unfortunately i have to go right now, i will be back in a little while to reply to some of the other things you have said.

 

[Bismillah]

Please don't try to act like you know me, and don't judge my life before you even look at my face. First of all, I am not from the gulf, I am Egyptian.

I called you a Khaliji because I thought you were born in the Khalij, Sahar pointed out earlier that it isn't always so and I acknowledged it so, sorry about the assumption.

Egyptians in Dubai are treated pretty badly, there is a lot of racial and cultural discrimination in this country.

I know

You're asking me what I know about poverty? We built 3 school toilets when we were in Kenya, with our own hands. We taught the children english and provided them a meal for the day, the smile on their faces was worth more than a million dollars.

I never said you didn't know poverty. You are trading the poverty of one people for that of another. You are from Egypt, did you ever see the conditions of living in Gaza or a refugee camp?

I'm not damning anyone, all i'm saying is that we should stop hating people so we can stop being hated.

First I agree with the principle, but what you did was point out the plight of some African countries and for some reason diminished the plight of the Palestinians? What do the two have in common let alone why would you diminish the suffering of a people? Making a comment saying that "they should leave" is a very ignorant one.

I really don't like the way you promptly assume so much when you know so little.

I'm not assuming anything and I don't have a problem with a person from the Khalij or from Masr, what I did have a problem with was your comment.

 

[Gharib]

me again i have some more time now,

"There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology."

in one of your other posts directed at brother Bismillah you accused him of making assumptions, however he explained his reasoning behind what he said and i agree with him. the reason why i mention this is because from the above statement you have made, and from some other points you have made, i can tell a lot about you, if you want to call it assumption, call it, however, i speak the truth as i see it.

to me it seems that you are a person who doesn't like the situation in which humanity is in at the current time. you don't like how others blame others not knowing their positions and you don't like how there is poverty, evil, etc etc.

to be honest with you no one likes that, however, to say that you had wrong views about things because of islam and that you need to change your 'ideology' and somehow the world will get better is a very ignorant thing to both say and do. since you have mentioned an example of theft, i will mention one that contradicts your 'facts' and views of how we react to such cases. During the reign of Umar bin Al Khattab a man committed theft (he stole food) and was caught afterwards. he was taken in front of Khalif Umar and as the trial was taking place to show evidence that he stole and to cut off his hand from the wrist, it was made clear that the man stole because he was poor and had no money to buy food. Umar freed him because it is the duty of the government to provide for the poor and needy.

if you are going to blame muslims and islam about being unjust and evil ("Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us") then you need to do a little more study because unless i am mistaken, it was the same man who came up with Evolution that said white man is superior to all other races. he viewed black people as the most inferior race among all. and it was these same stupid scientists who thought that they found a living being who was a transitional form of ape to human. look up Ota Benga. and one things i sure am not mistaken about Islam called all people equal no matter of race or gender.

moreover, you need to study quite a lot about islam, many of the things you have mentioned are quite basics, however, since you have mentioned them it tells me you don't have much islamic knowledge. but since you left islam i guess you're not going to take this part of advice from me.

i don't think i need to or should reply to the rest of your post, i hope my replies are of help to you.

 

[Gharib]

You know, its real easy to point fingers, and after people get exposed to a certain ideology for long enough, they start to aggressively believe in it. I have a homosexual student in my school, he is Belgian. During the student-body president elections last year, one of the arab students put his slogan as "God created adam and eve, not adam and steve. Vote straight, vote *****". A teacher in my school is very close to this homosexual student, he is a very nice guy at heart. When she confronted this arab student, he told her there was nothing she could do because being homosexual is against the law. This should speak for itself. Evolution is banned in my school, but I take the IB program, so it is there as an option, I chose to study it myself for the final exams.

homosexuality, to engage in the act is haram in islam and is a crime if one commits it. why do you have a problem with that? adultery too is a crime doesn't matter if there are 2 consulting adults or what ever. those are the laws of islam. in the country that i live in, a stupid law regarding theft is that you are not allowed to harm the thief who breaks into your house and you may only stop him from stealing so long as you do not cause harm to him, otherwise you go to jail and the thief goes free, he becomes the victim you become the criminal. thats the law here, if you go against it you get punished.

your above reasoning makes no sense as to why homosexuality is illegal.

I went on a school trip to Kenya about 3 weeks ago, a Palestinian girl was part of the group. During our stay, she asked me what I wanted to be, I told her that if finances allowed it, I would continue to medical school after university and travel africa (Doctors without borders) for 3-4 years after I finish my residency. She asked me why I don't go to Palestine and help the people there. I gave her three reasons:

1. I didn't want to pick sides in a war
2. If I wanted to be a war medic, i'd join the army
3. People in Palestine have the choice to flee the land, people in Africa are dying because they can't afford medication

She spat on my shoe, called me a pig, and insulted my mom (Kuss Umak). We never spoke again. Thats how most arabs feel about Israel in Dubai.

i believe brother Bismillah has replied to this part and i agree with his statement.

 

[Ignite]

me again i have some more time now,

"There is no better way to start than by changing my own ideology."

in one of your other posts directed at brother Bismillah you accused him of making assumptions, however he explained his reasoning behind what he said and i agree with him. the reason why i mention this is because from the above statement you have made, and from some other points you have made, i can tell a lot about you, if you want to call it assumption, call it, however, i speak the truth as i see it.

to me it seems that you are a person who doesn't like the situation in which humanity is in at the current time. you don't like how others blame others not knowing their positions and you don't like how there is poverty, evil, etc etc.

to be honest with you no one likes that, however, to say that you had wrong views about things because of islam and that you need to change your 'ideology' and somehow the world will get better is a very ignorant thing to both say and do. since you have mentioned an example of theft, i will mention one that contradicts your 'facts' and views of how we react to such cases. During the reign of Umar bin Al Khattab a man committed theft (he stole food) and was caught afterwards. he was taken in front of Khalif Umar and as the trial was taking place to show evidence that he stole and to cut off his hand from the wrist, it was made clear that the man stole because he was poor and had no money to buy food. Umar freed him because it is the duty of the government to provide for the poor and needy.

if you are going to blame muslims and islam about being unjust and evil ("Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us") then you need to do a little more study because unless i am mistaken, it was the same man who came up with Evolution that said white man is superior to all other races. he viewed black people as the most inferior race among all. and it was these same stupid scientists who thought that they found a living being who was a transitional form of ape to human. look up Ota Benga. and one things i sure am not mistaken about Islam called all people equal no matter of race or gender.

moreover, you need to study quite a lot about islam, many of the things you have mentioned are quite basics, however, since you have mentioned them it tells me you don't have much islamic knowledge. but since you left islam i guess you're not going to take this part of advice from me.

i don't think i need to or should reply to the rest of your post, i hope my replies are of help to you.

My intention was not to attack Islam, my intention was to attack the idea of creationism as a whole. "Stupid scientists"? Seriously? The Quran has 0 evidence to justify its claim, you believe that its correct because your imaginary friend tells you it is. I wasn't blaming Islam of being unjust and evil, I am blaming religion of being unjust and evil.

It appears you completely misunderstood my whole post, the ideology I intended to change was that it was okay to hate people because of where they are from. I didn't say that me changing my ideology will change the world, I said that the least I can do is start with myself, if everyone says someone else, no one will.

Cutting someones hand off because he stole an apple? Is that what you think should be done? Charles Darwin was living in a time of complete racism, the fact that he grew up with a certain philosophy has nothing to do with the validity of his theory. Fritz Haber developed a method known as "The Haber Process", this is an industrial chemical process that allows us to synthesis ammonia. His method was used to create chemical weapons during the period of World War 1, does his cause/intention make his method any less correct? Of course not.

Absolutely nothing that I mentioned was based on Islam or any other specific religion for that matter, I think its pretty clear that my post was simply to express why I left religion as a whole, not Islam in particular.

 

[Ignite]

I called you a Khaliji because I thought you were born in the Khalij, Sahar pointed out earlier that it isn't always so and I acknowledged it so, sorry about the assumption. I know I never said you didn't know poverty. You are trading the poverty of one people for that of another. You are from Egypt, did you ever see the conditions of living in Gaza or a refugee camp?First I agree with the principle, but what you did was point out the plight of some African countries and for some reason diminished the plight of the Palestinians? What do the two have in common let alone why would you diminish the suffering of a people? Making a comment saying that "they should leave" is a very ignorant one.I'm not assuming anything and I don't have a problem with a person from the Khalij or from Masr, what I did have a problem with was your comment.

I didn't say they 'should' leave, I said that I didn't want to pick sides or take part in a war. I didn't say they are less deserving, I said that I would rather help people elsewhere. The intention of that paragraph was not to show how little Palestinians deserved, it was to show how intolerant Arabs are of Israel.

 

[Gharib]

My intention was not to attack Islam, my intention was to attack the idea of creationism as a whole.

you may disagree with what i said, however you did attack islamic laws and beleifs. the following is your statement:
So what about this God? Why create people that disgust the opposite sex and send them to hell for it, does he enjoy torturing us?

unless i am mistaken you also said the following:
A teacher in my school is very close to this homosexual student, he is a very nice guy at heart. When she confronted this arab student, he told her there was nothing she could do because being homosexual is against the law. This should speak for itself.

you are speaking about islamic laws in an islamic majority society.
if you think i have misunderstood you or have misinterpreted your statements then please correct me. i do tend to misunderstand others at times, this case could be one of them.

"Stupid scientists"? Seriously? The Quran has 0 evidence to justify its claim, you believe that its correct because your imaginary friend tells you it is. I wasn't blaming Islam of being unjust and evil, I am blaming religion of being unjust and evil.

the Qur'an isn't a science book, you should now better not to ask for evidence from within the Qur'an. a better question for you to ask would be what evidence exists in support of the Qur'anic claim that we didn't evolve. then i could give you some examples.

as for the other part, please be honest, you live in Dubai and was raised there, this whole thing about leaving islam is a result of your dislike of how muslims view things, so the only religion you were speaking of whether directly (which i have pointed out) or indirectly is islam.

It appears you completely misunderstood my whole post, the ideology I intended to change was that it was okay to hate people because of where they are from. I didn't say that me changing my ideology will change the world, I said that the least I can do is start with myself, if everyone says someone else, no one will.

as mentioned before i do tend to do that unintentionally at times, my apologies if that is the case. i think i understand you statement better now and i would like to ask this question:
why do you feel the need to rid yourself of the islamic faith in order to achieve that? this is the part that says to me you blame islam. you are implying that so long as muslims remain muslims they will hate others for nothing, which is very false, so you decided to become a non-muslim in order to become better, you are implying that muslims are not good people. why is that?

Cutting someones hand off because he stole an apple? Is that what you think should be done?

my view is in accordance to that of islamic Shariah. however, i explained to you about the case of theft at the time of Khalif Umar. a full trial must take place. if you think that making such an example as above will strengthen your view/case then you are wrong. present a real case whether from the islamic nations or the non-islamic and then lets discuss that. i could say the same thing about evolution being evil for having caged up a grown man like an animal so others could see a living transitional form. actually i did and you brushed off my comment by mentioning Darwin, the Ota Benga case did not happen at the time of Darwin it happened not long ago. if you didn't like how i presented my view then why do the same to me about theft?

Charles Darwin was living in a time of complete racism, the fact that he grew up with a certain philosophy has nothing to do with the validity of his theory. Fritz Haber developed a method known as "The Haber Process", this is an industrial chemical process that allows us to synthesis ammonia. His method was used to create chemical weapons during the period of World War 1, does his cause/intention make his method any less correct? Of course not.

it depends, if his intention was to kill people by invading their homes having done nothing wrong then it is not correct. if his intention was so his people have a better chance of killing the enemy who is invading them for no reason then his intention is correct, even though nowadays such weapons are used for evil purposes.

Absolutely nothing that I mentioned was based on Islam or any other specific religion for that matter, I think its pretty clear that my post was simply to express why I left religion as a whole, not Islam in particular.

i have to disagree once again. i believe i have explained why i disagree above.

 

[Gharib]

I didn't say they 'should' leave, I said that I didn't want to pick sides or take part in a war. I didn't say they are less deserving, I said that I would rather help people elsewhere. The intention of that paragraph was not to show how little Palestinians deserved, it was to show how intolerant Arabs are of Israel.

evidence suggests to the contrary, who is making illegal settlements and expansions? on the land of which people is that happening?

do you actually think that arabs hate Israel for no reason what so ever? seriously?

 

[Ignite]

evidence suggests to the contrary, who is making illegal settlements and expansions? on the land of which people is that happening?

do you actually think that arabs hate Israel for no reason what so ever? seriously?

*Sigh* I think my points were made as clear as can be. If you think thats what I meant, then you can continue to think that

 

[Gharib]

*Sigh* I think my points were made as clear as can be. If you think thats what I meant, then you can continue to think that

quoting part of the picture and claiming that you made the issue clear doesn't solve the problem. to solve the problem we must find the source.

Israel is one among many, many other democratic, secular and non-muslim majority countries. have you ever asked yourself why arabs feel that way towards Israel and not about all other countries? do they feel that way about Canada? Australia? China? Mongolia?

i can agree with you that pretty much anything displeasing is associated with Israel, like the shark example you mentioned, it sounds just as stupid to me as it does to you, however, you must look at the bigger picture.

 

[Valjean]

Welcome, Ignite.
Very thoughtful OP. I do think there's more to religion than a desire for fairness, though. Have you considered man's need for significance, validation of the status quo or social stability as contributing factors?

Do dress warmly for your move to Canada. I think you'll find the climate rather different from what you're used to.