A Muslim speaks out for reform in Islam

[!Fluffy!]

You always fool around and say i wasn't addressing you bla bla

While that comment is rather rude and inaccurate, I'm sad to say it is about what I would expect in terms of a solid refutation.

when someone show you how wrong you were. I don't care whether you were talking to me or to someone else, once you talk about Islam, don't expect from A MUSLIM to ignore any misconception about his/her religion.

Again, this reflects a transparent refusal to address the post or OP topic in favor of pointless ad hominems. If one repeatedly neglects to address specific "misconceptions" while maintaining a hostile attitude, it does nothing to further a position (which is still unclear at this point).

lol. *shrug* why should i hate her. She can say whatever she wants and as i said in my pervious post, she has no value so i won't waste my time on thinking whether i like her or not. Regarding your interest in her, again, it's not my business.

LOL, she is the topic of the thread. One may dislike the topic but there is no need to change it, just meet the challenge of sticking to it by voicing an opinion and defending same with a credible, compelling argument rather than just attacking people who support or admire her.

It's not about your right to post in here or not,

Sorry but "mind your business" cannot be taken any other way than as it was written.

but about your claims about what Muslims should do and what they shouldn't especially about this statement:

So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

That's why i said, mind your business, because what Muslims do with each other is not of your concern.

Sorry, but if that's an argument it is not compelling nor relevant, all things considered. I stand by what I said.

Why you worship three gods? I have evidence that you do.

This is so off topic and pointless, disrespectful and rude that it lends no credence to any opposing position, but in fact weakens it further.

Therefore, if you wish to claim that Christians on this board and elsewhere never chant: "this is not Christianity" and nauseum when confronted with obvious evidence to the contrary, it would be easy to prove that's a false claim

While I am flattered (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all) --merely inserting "Christianity" for "islam" is just silly and out of context for the thread. Unfortunately, Christianity is still not the subject. It would be great to see a relevant, direct response to the OP or one of my posts. Sticking to one point or the subject of the thread would be a welcome breath of fresh air.

I'd truly like to hear any compelling argument which excludes personal attacks and all the other obvious logical fallacies.

Opsss, don't tell me this is not Christianity, or you will end to be just a hypocrite.

Well at least you're consistent. Add another ad hom to the off-topic column.

As i said before, i don't give any value to those who don't deserve it.

No, it looks like you don't give any value to those who confront you honestly. I'm losing count of the ad homs here, by the way.

hmmmm, do you imply that i can't say my opinion in my country?

I'm implying nothing.

You said: So, the message to Muslims is this: instead of telling me that "this is not Islam" stop and consider telling it to the people who are perpetrating so called non Islamic practices in the name of Allah.

That's why i responded saying that, the more we try to educate the Muslim youth about the our peaceful religion, the more your country and others invade our Muslim countries and destroy everything we did. Invading Muslim countries and humiliate it's people will just feed the hate and show the terrorists as heros in the eyes of so many Muslims because they are fighting back. I hope your government will stop it's terror against us.

I hope you got what i meant by now.

Oh, I probably got it the first time but couldn't really believe what I was seeing. I must admit I wanted it spelled out just like this to avoid misunderstanding completely. Finally we get to the heart of the matter. Your statements above are EXACTLY what Manji addresses in her books, talks and website. It is exactly what she is talking about when she says:

"Muslims are not powerless. We have the power to do what no one else ultimately can. We can stop the violence. But we need to convince other Muslims that this behavior is vile, rather than telling non-Muslims that "this is not Islam."​

In my opinion it is truly pathetic to see any people so mired in hatred and blinded by lies that they must blame everyone but themselves for the violence they engender, embrace, support or proliferate. Blaming others for Islamic terrorism is a lame blame game, it just doesn't work. It is exactly the kind of attitude that helps no one and hurts everyone. If terrorists are "heroes in the eyes of so many Muslims" it is frankly nothing new, and is the kind of attitude that cannot be propitiated or appeased by Israel or by the West, through any course of peaceful action or inaction, ever. The attitude of hate is a cancer that has to be excised and dealt with, not ignored or blamed on someone else.

That is one reason I was so glad to see what Paul said in his OP:

I just finished watching the Glen Beck show. Tonight Glen's guest was an eloquent dear lady called Irshad Manji. What a remarkable young lady this person is. One of her basic premises as explained in her book The Trouble with Islam Today is this. Irshad does not blame just Muslim's who are extremists, but points the finger directly at "moderate" Muslims for their relative silence.

She clearly and passionately outlined how so-called "moderates" are complicit in the horrors and atrocities committed by the extremist fundamentalist factions because they are AFRAID to question their assertions and also the entrenched thinking of so-called Muslim "scholars". (Frankly, that has been my thinking for some time now, too. It is refreshing hearing your thoughts come from one within the religion itself. That IS an eye-opener.)

She is rather insistent that things do not have to be this way and feels that Islam itself contains the seeds to reform within Islam itself. She also flatly denied that Islam is NOT the problem itself as so many self-described “moderates” always insist “this is not Islam”. She explained very convincingly and clearly WHY. Her point is that the radicals “get away” with their interpretations because no one has the courage to stand up and “take them to task” “lest they be judged”. Frankly, I am smitten and I consider her to be a wonderful and brilliant speaker.

Note: Irshad Manji is a practicing Muslim and has no plans of "leaving the fold". Her sincere hope is to get Muslims to start talking, as espoused so much in the Noble Qur'an, to think critically of the very things they have accepted and believe.

I am curious what both Muslims and non-Muslims make of this remarkable speaker.

Her website is: Muslim Refusenik

Her book, The Trouble with Islam Today can be downloaded in the following languages for FREE:

Arabic
Urdu
Persian

English speaking folks are expected to buy the book and I certainly plan to.
The Trouble with Islam Today at Amazon.com

By golly, I think there is hope... maybe. What do you think?

So I stand by my comments here. Both Paul and I have been pretty easy to understand, direct and thorough.

Frankly though I don't care for the disintegration of the tone here into blatant and undeserved hostility. Civilized people should be able to present their ideas without repeatedly bashing others holding opposing points of view but, this is nothing new and I'm not surprised.

Super Man died and the world became without a savior. :sad4:

"They" refer to you and people who hold the same attitude and mentality as you do.

So I've nothing to add unless someone wants to direct a specific question to me that hasn't been addressed already.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Moderate Muslims can save a lot more innocent people than the Queen of Jordan could ever save if they just speak out against the terrorists using their religion as a reason for killing people

As all of us on this forum have said a million times we do but are moderate muslims put on 60 minutes, CNN, CNBC, or Oprah no never you only see them every once in a while usually on some Free speech TV which nobody really watches.

come on this is broken record misconception can we move on from this please. Every muslim on this forum speaks out against it and every muslim I know does as well. Hey here's an idea why don't you instead of spreading the propaganda of this complete falsehood try if you have any pull to get some "moderate" muslims on TV or any other major media market. I got a list of a hundred off the top of my head that would love to go and speak out against it. Ever heard of CAIR. Contact the local CAIR chapter in your area they would love you for you to give them a national voice where millions of people are watching. If you cannot help the problem do not spread the lie because it seems like that is what media wants you to do for it sells more newspaper.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Rather than imply that I have nothing good to say about Islam I wish you would have read the post in context as a direct REPLY to another.

As far as your opinion on the subject: That's one opinion, certainly you have a right to it but it is as erroneous as it is popular I'm sure.

Not really? Maybe to people who hate or dilike islam or the small number of reformers who are ignorant of the religion anyways.

You can hardly contend for example that the subject in question (Glen Beck) has "never had anything good to say about Islam" when in fact the opposite is true. As far as Irshad is concerned I can only comment again that she's articulate, intelligent, outspoken and *gasp* popular with moderates and reformers in HER FAITH.

Yeah her faith for her actions are not Islam. She is completely entitled to her opinion as we all are. But she can say what she wants Allah will deal with her, big deal. There are probably lots more of her somewhere on the globe. She is in no way going to rule over the majority of muslims not even a major fraction. The number of people in Islam influenced by her is like the number of David Koresh followers compared to all the other Christian groups combined.

If one wishes to make the point she is not a Muslim, it would frankly sound a little hypocritical, and not very tolerant.

Well read the Quran and the hadith of the Messenger on people who say these things or try to change or alter anything within our faith, you must understand that this is a fundamental truths in our religion. You cannot alter something that was established by the Messenger of the companions, going against things like that could takes a person right out of Islam and they will get the ultimate punishment from Allah on the day of Judgement when He sentences them to eternal hellfire.

No one is treating anyone like a child. And as far as what you or other Muslims do or don't do that isn't my concern unless your replies are directed at me. My post was a direct response to another post and should be read in that context rather than taken personally. The point is that I am not the only one on this forum who has been told time and time again "oh, this is not Islam"...for example

This is not addressing me but I see your point.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=654636#post654636

"Muslims are not powerless. We have the power to do what no one else ultimately can. We can stop the violence. But we need to convince other Muslims that this behavior is vile, rather than telling non-Muslims that "this is not Islam."​

- Irshad Manji, (my favorite Muslim woman).

Well as I told someone else maybe Irshad instead of badmouthing the muslims should help them get a national voice since she aparently has one. You see you is not helping anything. Yeah she is smart but she is just talking and not solving the problem. Quit talking about it. Everyone always goes the muslims do this and that. I am telling all of you everyone of you. If any of you have a national stage to put a moderate panel of Islamic scholars who represent the best of us in terms of understanding our religion. Not the one's who were hired by CNN. I am talking about real scholars who went to Islamic universities, have masters and phds, are hafiz in Quran in all 10 Qira'at, have you know 50,000 or 100,000 hadith memorized. Bring it. Lets make it happen. If Irshad can't do that then O.K. She does not represent Islam nor will she ever. If she doesn't want to help any of the real representatives of the relgion get a voice then she is a part of the problem and not the solution.

 

[vandervalley]

As all of us on this forum have said a million times we do but are moderate muslims put on 60 minutes, CNN, CNBC, or Oprah no never you only see them every once in a while usually on some Free speech TV which nobody really watches.

come on this is broken record misconception can we move on from this please. Every muslim on this forum speaks out against it and every muslim I know does as well. Hey here's an idea why don't you instead of spreading the propaganda of this complete falsehood try if you have any pull to get some "moderate" muslims on TV or any other major media market. I got a list of a hundred off the top of my head that would love to go and speak out against it. Ever heard of CAIR. Contact the local CAIR chapter in your area they would love you for you to give them a national voice where millions of people are watching. If you cannot help the problem do not spread the lie because it seems like that is what media wants you to do for it sells more newspaper.

So shouldn't the "moderate muslims" support Irshad Manji (PBUH ) for what she is doing? instead of saying things like “beating her to death” or “shame on her” etc.

 

[TashaN]

So I've nothing to add unless someone wants to direct a specific question to me that hasn't been addressed already.

No body will ask you anything, do you know why?

Because once you dislike their questions so you gonna dismiss it.

Anyway, I think i made my point, responded to the OP and said my opinion, but you still bringing up feeble arguments which my respond to every single sentence or argument of it would be a total waste of time.

You mentioned nothing in your last posts except the following:

1- I wasn't adressing you.
2- This is off-topic.

You just keep repeating the same things all over, over, and overrrrrrr.

[63] And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!" (Quran 25:63)

 

[TashaN]

So shouldn't the "moderate muslims" support Irshad Manji (PBUH ) for what she is doing? instead of saying things like “beating her to death” or “shame on her” etc.

You should stop watching tv, and movies alot, seriously. You didn't even see what we said.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

So shouldn't the "moderate muslims" support Irshad Manji (PBUH ) for what she is doing? instead of saying things like “beating her to death” or “shame on her” etc.

You did not read my other post. On the issue as to whether or not she is muslim because what she is trying to do within the religion is a greater munkar or evil in the sight of God according to the traditions of the Messenger and his companions whom Allah and His Messenger were pleased with.

So not only is she not doing anything to give moderate muslims a voice she is calling for reforms and amendments to the religion of Allah as if it is flawed. Allah's laws are flawed and need to be changed. This is not accepted. So she is doing a double harm to the muslims. So she is twice removed

 

[Djamila]

No body will ask you anything, do you know why?

Because once you dislike their questions so you gonna dismiss it.

Anyway, I think i made my point, responded to the OP and said my opinion, but you still bringing up feeble arguments which my respond to every single sentence or argument of it would be a total waste of time.

You mentioned nothing in your last posts except the following:

1- I wasn't adressing you.
2- This is off-topic.

You just keep repeating the same things all over, over, and overrrrrrr.

[63] And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!" (Quran 25:63)

Frubals! There are a few I've learned to ignore as well, The Truth.

There's just no point in talking with them because their minds are already made up and closed shut. Also, they don't really talk - they just reply with these sentences constructed to offer nothing of substance except their disapproval.

It's an exercise in futility. I'd recommend simply making one post, not even directed toward them, to correct their misconceptions for future readers - and then walk away.

 

[lilithu]

If Djamila, Laila, jamaesi, The Truth, Einstein, and Mujahid Mohammed were extremist in their views, as evinced by their posts on RF, then I would see some validity to questioning their opinion of this woman. But since they have shown themselves to be imminently reasonable and open, I wonder why their opinions should be suspect over this woman's. Afterall, we all know Djamila, Laila, jamaesi, The Truth, Einstein, and Mujahid Mohammed. We do not know this other person. So would people prefer to believe her simply because what she says fits with what they want to believe about Islam?

I don't know this woman. I do know that just because someone happens to belong to a group it doesn't mean that they speak authentically for the group or have the group's best interests in mind. For example, I wouldn't listen to Clarence Thomas' opinions about African Americans. :areyoucra

 

[vandervalley]

So not only is she not doing anything to give moderate muslims a voice she is calling for reforms and amendments to the religion of Allah as if it is flawed. Allah's laws are flawed and need to be changed. This is not accepted. So she is doing a double harm to the muslims. So she is twice removed

Well..u see religions change and evolve over time..during the time of ur prophet there were no shias or sunnies; just 1 Islam. But look at the world now; shias and sunnies shooting each other in Iraq.

Irshad Manji (PBUH ) loves Islam thats why she sees it's time to interpret the Islamic teachings in a way which will stop the bloodshed.

She DID NOT say Allah's laws are flawed or anything like that. She only saw the terrorists/ some clerics interpreting Allah's laws in a way which prolongs violence; thus the need to change the way those terrorists interpret the islamic teachings.

In the end its those terrorists + a minority of clerics that are reforming and amending the Islamic teachings to suit their own violent ambitions.

Now; who do u think would be favoured Allah?

Irshad Manji (PBUH ) who interprets (NOT amending or reforming) Islamic teaching in a peaceful manner; thus the potential to save lots of innocent people (maybe a lot more than the Queen of Jordan (PBU Her ))

OR

Some clerics +violent people who interpret Islamic teachings in a way which would end up killing moderate Muslims favoured by Allah?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Well..u see religions change and evolve over time..during the time of ur prophet there were no shias or sunnies; just 1 Islam. But look at the world now; shias and sunnies shooting each other in Iraq.

No other religions do that but not Islam. Besides the Messenger told us we would have division from the hadith. The Jews will divide into 71 groups, the Christians 72 and the Muslims 73 only one is going to paradise and that is those who believe in Allah, His book, and His Messenger everyone else is in hellfire.

So people can alter what they like. But they will be punished by Allah.

Irshad Manji (PBUH ) loves Islam thats why she sees it's time to interpret the Islamic teachings in a way which will stop the bloodshed.

Her changing principles will not stop the bloodshed. People need to practice Islam in the manner of the Messenger and his companions. that is the problem people are trying to justify their current misguided actions with their own interpretations of the Quran when we have a way of performing it.

She DID NOT say Allah's laws are flawed or anything like that. She only saw the terrorists/ some clerics interpreting Allah's laws in a way which prolongs violence; thus the need to change the way those terrorists interpret the islamic teachings.

That is not all she wants or claims.

In the end its those terrorists + a minority of clerics that are reforming and amending the Islamic teachings to suit their own violent ambitions.

She is as well and she is in the same boat as they are. Deviant and misguided and the fire will be their resting place.

Now; who do u think would be favoured Allah?

The ones who follow the light of the Quran and the sunnah of the Messenger which means they carry out the orders of Quran the way the followers of Muhammed carried out the orders.

Irshad Manji (PBUH )

She is a women and this pbuh is only for the Prophets and Messenger. You should say after her name may God have mercy on her.

who interprets (NOT amending or reforming) Islamic teaching in a peaceful manner; thus the potential to save lots of innocent people (maybe a lot more than the Queen of Jordan (PBU Her ))

she is still wrong in giving her own interpretation and no she will not save any people for her ideas create more division and take more people out of the fold of Islam. Even if she leads one person to the path of hellfire, she is still commiting a great evil in our religion. Of course she is entitled to do it for she has free will but it is something Allah will condemn a person for.

Some clerics +violent people who interpret Islamic teachings in a way which would end up killing moderate Muslims favoured by Allah?

Any body who interprets Islam from their own understanding without the understanding of how Allah's Messenger Muhammed and his companions is way off track.

That it in a nut shell. She is wrong and the terrorists are wrong.

 

[PeaceSeeker]

I'm new here...and...I find it ironic that people argue over which is the correct religion. We are all mere, minute energy bubbles existing in a tiny energy bubble called Earth...that exists in God's vast universe...yet we still kill our brethren over religious differences...that is true stupidity.

 

[DeepShadow]

Just saw her PBS special. I think one of her better points is that far too many Muslims equate "being offended" with "being discriminated against," when being offended is a regular part of living in a free society.

 

[moon1]

catholics have at least 5 or 6 books more in their bible than the protestants(some anglican churches still use the extra books though). martin luther excised them from protestant bible in 15th century.

syrian ortodox church have saint thomas bible others dont have that.

slavic orthodox, etheopian orthodox etc have different things in their bible uncommon to others.

my question is --- can a scripture of God(if undistorted) be so different from each other???

 

[moon1]

catholics have at least 5 or 6 books more in their bible than the protestants(some anglican churches still use the extra books though). martin luther excised them from protestant bible in 15th century.

syrian ortodox church have saint thomas bible others dont have that.

slavic orthodox, etheopian orthodox etc have different things in their bible uncommon to others.

my question is --- can a scripture of God(if undistorted) be so different from each other???

I think she's an idiot, to be frank.

She is very disrespectful, even cowardly I believe, in the manner and circumstances in which she presents her views.

I would never go on the Glen Beck show and speak to that backwoods, Conservative hick about "the trouble" with Islam. I would speak with the people at my Mosque, and sit down with my Imam.

Tarak Fatah said she's making Muslim-haters feel secure in their opinion, and I think he's right. She's like the Jewish police at the concentration camps in WWII.

She makes me want to wear a burka.

 

[moon1]

hindus and other pagans sometimes believe that God is one but come to the earth in the form of creatures. believers of trinity believe that God came to the earth in the form of Jesus which is sheer paganism. djamila could you please ask your catholic husband to know how he respond to that question?

I think she's an idiot, to be frank.

She is very disrespectful, even cowardly I believe, in the manner and circumstances in which she presents her views.

I would never go on the Glen Beck show and speak to that backwoods, Conservative hick about "the trouble" with Islam. I would speak with the people at my Mosque, and sit down with my Imam.

Tarak Fatah said she's making Muslim-haters feel secure in their opinion, and I think he's right. She's like the Jewish police at the concentration camps in WWII.

She makes me want to wear a burka.

 

[DeepShadow]

my question is --- can a scripture of God(if undistorted) be so different from each other???

Good question. Make it a new thread, please.

 

[des]

I don't know enough about Islam to say, but I saw her on PBS: Frontline the other day. This is a program that is definitely not geared to any country bumpkin and so on.
I found her interesting and very provocative.
This is a little bit about this program as it was not all about her:
ttp://www.pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_faith_without_fear.html

OTOH, I feel the reason that we didn't hear more about opposition to 9-11 by Muslims has more to do with the kind of press we have than the actual stance of Muslims, who were more or less uniformly shocked and saddened. The invasion into Iraq hurt any political capital the US might have gotten from good will all around. Like their portrayal of Christianity, the media tend to represent the extreme elements only, and rarely any other opinions. If it bleeds it leads applies to religion, like anything else.


There was discussion of the fear of debate in/with Islam that occurred in the past, and in many countries this debate is decreasing. The program (another episode I think-- as I have watched 4-5 of them) was about Indonesia and the decrease in tolerance towards minorities and Hindus.

Reza Aslan says there IS a reformation going on in Islam, and like the reformation in Christianity it is bloody. I thought that was a very interesting idea. He is a good writer and probably more representative and more neutral than Irshad Manji.

--des

--des

 

[mohamedhassan]

Did anyone mention that she was FOR the invasion of Iraq? ya that means she has no probelems with whats going on today

 

[DeepShadow]

Did anyone mention that she was FOR the invasion of Iraq? ya that means she has no probelems with whats going on today

Very interesting. What's your source on that? I disagreed with her as much as I agreed, so I'm okay either way, but I'd like a source.