A omnipotent, omnibenevolent God and human beings suffering

[Shuttlecraft]

Topic title: A omnipotent, omnibenevolent God and human beings suffering
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The earth is a Testing Ground, so of course there's pain.
The only success that matters is getting through the Life Assault Course:-
"All creation groans in pain from the beginning til now" (Rom 8:22)

And it sorts the men from the boys:-
"We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)

Jesus welcomes anybody into his squad:-
"Whoever comes to me I'll never turn away" (John 6:37)

And he'll lead by example:-
"To follow me you must carry your own cross daily" (Luke 9:23)

The C.O. shows no favouritism:-
"God didn't spare his own son" (Rom 8:32)

So if he can hack it so can we:-
"We share in Jesus's sufferings in order to share in his glory" (Rom 8:17)

And others have stayed the course too:-
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim 4:7)

Then if we qualify we win the 'Gold Beret':-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)
Waddya say Sergeant?

"Take the pain! TAKE THE PAIN!"

 

[Levite]

Is logic a limitation for him?
Does God need to obey the laws of logic?

No, I don't think He does. God transcends our conceptions of reason, embodying the essence of paradox.

God is perfect, therefore that would mean that being basically good is perfection. God is perfect and complete, therefore he has no desires. If God is perfect, evil is perfect, because God created it.

First of all, I think you have an erroneous conception of what it means to say that God is "perfect." It has nothing to do with valuation or idealization, it means that God does not need anything outside Himself. That is entirely different from whether God wants anything outside Himself. It also has nothing to do with making value judgments about things God has created. Not everything that He creates is the perfection of that thing-- most things aren't, I would suppose.

If your son or daughter end up in hell you shouldn't love them no more and feel no compassion, because you wouldn't be as perfect as God.

Jews don't believe in Hell.

Also, while we do teach that people should try to emulate God's qualities in various ways, we don't teach that people should truly try to be like God, because they can't: God is God, people are people, and the two are simply not enough alike to reasonably expect us to be like Him. And since God is capable of anything, aphysical, singular, perfect (in the sense I indicated previously), and eternal, it would be ridiculous to expect ourselves to even have a chance of becoming truly like Him. The idea that God is perfect (in the sense you seem to mean it) and thus we also should be perfect is not a Jewish idea, it is a Christian idea.

God is perfect and complete, therefore he has no desires.
There can't be no long-term goal.
There can't be no evolution in a perfect creation, just a mere, useless rearrangement of things from perfection to perfection.
Each act of God is utterly useless.

Again, because God is perfect does not in any way indicate that He has no desires. To have no needs is not the same thing as having no desires. Second of all, just because God is perfect does not mean that what He creates is also perfect. In fact, since we believe that only God is perfect, that only God can be perfect, then by definition everything that God creates is at least somewhat imperfect-- perfection is completion, and true completion would require infinite totality and unity, which only God has, since there can be only one infinite and singular being at once.

And for the record, I don't believe anything God does is useless.

If God is perfect, evil is perfect, because God created it.
There's no reason for him to be angry if some human being is involved in a perfect phenomenon he has created.

Again, just because it is a creation of God does not mean it is perfect. Evil is the result of human beings abusing their free will. God may or may not be angry when it happens, but He is not surprised, though He may be disappointed in us.

That is sheer slavery and humiliating, and not compatible with free will.
There can't be freedom with tension, it is not freedom at all.

I don't believe that, I disagree with that evaluation, and I see no justification for that conclusion.

God has no purposes. A perfect being can't have any purpose.

I'm not even sure that would hold true if your definition of perfect were accurate. It certainly is not with the definition common to my tradition.

The source from where these echoes reverberates is you, not God.

I don't even know what that means.

Not erroneous at all. Each powerful enough δ, μ opioid receptor agonist utterly suppresses the phenomenon of suffering, and that is especially true for psychological suffering. What you said you just heard somewhere and repeated here, and until you smoke opium your ideas on opium doesn't have any value.
The real disaster here is that even pleasure is some dopamine neurosignaling, just like pain, and nothing more, but you feel this is a profound truth. Pain is real and can't be illusory, pleasure is illusory and can't be real. And both are made of the same stuff. A disaster.

I smoked some opium in my youth. I see no connection between that experience and anything you have said. It was an interesting high, but I felt no alleviation of total suffering, just a fuzzy disconnect from a lot of my conscious thought and feeling. I fail to see how having smoked opium would somehow enlighten me about suffering or make me think that metaphysical issues could somehow be solved by opiod receptors.

Also, who said that pain is real but pleasure is not?! That's craziness. Pain and pleasure are both real.

I don't know to what particular philosophy you are operating in rejection, but you might wish to explore other theologies and philosophies, across various faith traditions, since what you're saying seems ill-suited and not particularly relevant to at least those with which I am most familiar.

 

[Underground]

You obviously don't know anywhere near as much about me as you think you do.

I know nothing about you, neither i meant that you don't love the people you love, or that you're not loved back, or that your love lacks something, not even remotely. But you're a Christian, and no Christian knows love at its purest. There is no God there.

Nice scripture, but you didn't answer my question. Don't bother, though. There's another thread that's been going since December, 2012 on this same subject, and it's been going around in circles since it was started (4600 posts so far and still going strong) -- just the way this one is going to do. And with that, I'll see you around.

No scripture will ever answer any question.
And another thread like this with ~5k posts, that is just wonderful.

 

[Underground]

No, I don't think He does. God transcends our conceptions of reason, embodying the essence of paradox.

How can you believe something you don't even know? How can you believe something that trascends your reason. What are you believing? Everything you know about him is false as he's beyond reason.

I'm just visualizing a human being dying, thinking that god transcends our conceptions of reason, embodying the essence of paradox. I didn't know people could be so asleep.

First of all, I think you have an erroneous conception of what it means to say that God is "perfect." It has nothing to do with valuation or idealization, it means that God does not need anything outside Himself. That is entirely different from whether God wants anything outside Himself. It also has nothing to do with making value judgments about things God has created. Not everything that He creates is the perfection of that thing-- most things aren't, I would suppose.

You don't understand the nature of desire.
Someone who wants something has a desire.
Someone who has a desire has some need to be fulfilled.
Someone who has a need to be fulfilled is not perfect.

Your explanation is pure, incoherent fantasy.

Jews don't believe in Hell.

So, what happens after death?

Also, while we do teach that people should try to emulate God's qualities in various ways, we don't teach that people should truly try to be like God, because they can't: God is God, people are people, and the two are simply not enough alike to reasonably expect us to be like Him. And since God is capable of anything, aphysical, singular, perfect (in the sense I indicated previously), and eternal, it would be ridiculous to expect ourselves to even have a chance of becoming truly like Him. The idea that God is perfect (in the sense you seem to mean it) and thus we also should be perfect is not a Jewish idea, it is a Christian idea.

Come on, i read the Old Testament. You can't believe the God of the Old Testament could be a real God. Please, tell me you don't believe it.

Again, because God is perfect does not in any way indicate that He has no desires. To have no needs is not the same thing as having no desires. Second of all, just because God is perfect does not mean that what He creates is also perfect. In fact, since we believe that only God is perfect, that only God can be perfect, then by definition everything that God creates is at least somewhat imperfect-- perfection is completion, and true completion would require infinite totality and unity, which only God has, since there can be only one infinite and singular being at once.

And for the record, I don't believe anything God does is useless.

There is no damned difference between need and desire.

Again, just because it is a creation of God does not mean it is perfect. Evil is the result of human beings abusing their free will. God may or may not be angry when it happens, but He is not surprised, though He may be disappointed in us.

There can't be any free will if God is omniscient.

I don't believe that, I disagree with that evaluation, and I see no justification for that conclusion.

And if you need a hug, i'm here.

I'm not even sure that would hold true if your definition of perfect were accurate. It certainly is not with the definition common to my tradition.

I'm not the kind of person you guess, i cried for minutes when i read that a human being follows a tradition the way you follow it.

I don't even know what that means.

If you really understood how you don't know what that means, you would commit suicide instantly.

I smoked some opium in my youth. I see no connection between that experience and anything you have said. It was an interesting high, but I felt no alleviation of total suffering, just a fuzzy disconnect from a lot of my conscious thought and feeling.

Not enough morphine.

I fail to see how having smoked opium would somehow enlighten me about suffering or make me think that metaphysical issues could somehow be solved by opiod receptors.

That's because you're so far from God you fail to see him in everyday life, and the more you're far from God, the more you need a tradition. The further you are, the more magnificent God seems.

In this case, you should've seen that suffering is illusory, and that no phenomenon that can be turned down chemically should be of any importance to you.

Also, who said that pain is real but pleasure is not?! That's craziness. Pain and pleasure are both real.

Both illusory.

I don't know to what particular philosophy you are operating in rejection, but you might wish to explore other theologies and philosophies, across various faith traditions, since what you're saying seems ill-suited and not particularly relevant to at least those with which I am most familiar.

No need for any further exploration. The journey's over.

 

[Nakosis]

Suffering is fear and loss.
Pain is an alarm. You body telling you something is wrong.

Suffering is a catalyst of life. It's the motivation to fix what's broken. This existence is not perfect. It's the lack of perfection which causes the suffering.

The only way to achieve perfection is by reunion with God. Or maybe death if you're an atheist. No more desires among the dead.

We learn to not be controlled by desire. No desire, no suffering. I see it not as a test but as a challenge. We can choose reunion, or death at any time, but we don't. Because we want the imperfection, we want the desire. We want to be tempted by sin.

So God does not cause the suffering, we do. You can stop the suffering whenever you want, just give up the sin.

I suppose blame God for giving you the freedom to do what you want. It really sucks to have the freedom to choose to suffer. However if you are suffering there is really no one else to blame but yourself.

 

[Nakosis]

There can't be any free will if God is omniscient.

Why not? Just because God knows the future doesn't mean you aren't making choices.

If God knows the choices you are going to make, how does that preclude you making the choices you were going to make anyway.

 

[idav]

In a way suffering brings us closer to god but we cant handle god in the flesh, we would die.

 

[Levite]

How can you believe something you don't even know? How can you believe something that trascends your reason. What are you believing? Everything you know about him is false as he's beyond reason.

I'm just visualizing a human being dying, thinking that god transcends our conceptions of reason, embodying the essence of paradox. I didn't know people could be so asleep.



You don't understand the nature of desire.
Someone who wants something has a desire.
Someone who has a desire has some need to be fulfilled.
Someone who has a need to be fulfilled is not perfect.

Your explanation is pure, incoherent fantasy.



So, what happens after death?



Come on, i read the Old Testament. You can't believe the God of the Old Testament could be a real God. Please, tell me you don't believe it.



There is no damned difference between need and desire.



There can't be any free will if God is omniscient.



And if you need a hug, i'm here.



I'm not the kind of person you guess, i cried for minutes when i read that a human being follows a tradition the way you follow it.



If you really understood how you don't know what that means, you would commit suicide instantly.



Not enough morphine.



That's because you're so far from God you fail to see him in everyday life, and the more you're far from God, the more you need a tradition. The further you are, the more magnificent God seems.

In this case, you should've seen that suffering is illusory, and that no phenomenon that can be turned down chemically should be of any importance to you.



Both illusory.



No need for any further exploration. The journey's over.

Leaving aside for the moment the baseless and intolerant ways in which you are judging me and my beliefs, you present no compelling arguments, and your theology, or atheology, seems like nothing so much as nihilistic depression. I find it difficult to understand in what way your beliefs would be helpful, or promote a meaningful life, or inspire anyone to better themselves. Especially given how contemptuous you are of positions with which you disagree, and how absolute your close-mindedness is to considering anything else.

It's a free country, so believe as you like. But I must say that to me, your beliefs seem like they have brought you nothing but anger, bitterness, fear, and despair. You must feel very hopeless. I hope things get better for you.

 

[Parsimony]

There is no damned difference between need and desire.

If I desire a comic book I also need that comic book?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..There can't be any free will if God is omniscient...

You mean all-knowing?
But on this testing ground called earth he obviously doesn't use his omniscience, otherwise what'd be the point of testing us if he already knows whether we'll pass or fail?..

 

[Glaurung]

God is omnipotent.
God is omnibenevolent.

Sure.

Any argument to justify suffering is invalid. Any.

Is that fact or doctrine speaking? But, I'll hear you out.

"God allows suffering to exist because we wouldn't know pleasure".

I've never really heard that angle before, nor am I interested in such a line of augmentation, so I'll move on.

"God made us free to choose", but he is omnipotent. He could've created human beings free to chose that were not free to choose, as he is omnipotent

Perhaps God instead created a reality wherein things behave consistently. Consistency suggest rules, such as non-contradiction. In other words, a variable that is X but at the same time not X is incoherent. Your augment here is essentially asking God for square circles. That's not how the world, and extension God, seems to function.

His omnipotence makes any reason to justify suffering utterly invalid.

In your opinion. I believe suffering and evil to be a moral, rather than a metaphysical reality inherent in God's creative works. In other words, God although not the direct cause of suffering has though his infinite perspective nonetheless allowed this state of affairs the bring about even more good than were he to prevent suffering altogether. How can a speck of dust fairly question a nebula?

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Job 38:4

The real life is the life eternal life beyond death, what we do here doesn't matter at all

On the contrary. In the Christian wordview, this life is even more important in its consequences than that of the materialist wordview, as your decisions here on Earth will have a tremendous impact on your eternity.

Any powerful enough opium alkaloid, as long it's binding to opioid receptors, suppresses pain and psychological suffering completely.

Sure, but are you really going to accept that drip-feed and spend the rest of your life drooling? Or do you want a little more purpose than that? Which suggest that pleasure in of itself isn't really what life is actually about.

Suffering -Don't pretend you know it's not true before you tried - is just some signaling in our brain. And yet theists have been wasting time, paper and ink writing tons and tons of useless theories about how suffering is God's compassion and legions of retarded masochists enjoyed suffering all their life.

Is this an actual point or are you just indulging in your own sentimentality? You do realise were it not for the ability to feel pain, you'd probably not live very long.

Ah, but God could create pain, but not create pain you counter. But you're not going to convince many with such word games. Because that's all you're doing when you insist that non-contradiction should not apply to omnipotence.

 

[Underground]

If I desire a comic book I also need that comic book?

If you have a soul do you need food?

Leaving aside for the moment the baseless and intolerant ways in which you are judging me and my beliefs, you present no compelling arguments, and your theology, or atheology, seems like nothing so much as nihilistic depression.

I'm not judging you, i'm judging your beliefs. If you feel that there is no difference between you and your beliefs i can do nothing about it.
Beliefs are utterly worthless and i'm intolerant against them, because the world overflows with phenomenons that could turn your beliefs in a handful of ashes in no time. There are no compelling argument that could convince you, because you have dogmas. There are no way i could present an argument against an ineffable God. It is sheer nonsense. Neither you can present arguments in favour, as God is ineffable.
Defending a vague entity is a much easier work.

When you talk about nihilistic depression, that is you without beliefs and traditions.

I find it difficult to understand in what way your beliefs would be helpful, or promote a meaningful life, or inspire anyone to better themselves.

You should judge beliefs using a truth scale and no other scale.

Especially given how contemptuous you are of positions with which you disagree, and how absolute your close-mindedness is to considering anything else.

I'm just having fun! Don't take that seriously.

It's a free country, so believe as you like. But I must say that to me, your beliefs seem like they have brought you nothing but anger, bitterness, fear, and despair. You must feel very hopeless. I hope things get better for you.

I do feel hopeless, because i don't hope at all, and i have no beliefs.
And be sure, things can't get any better for me now.

 

[Underground]

Sure.

Beautiful.

Is that fact or doctrine speaking? But, I'll hear you out.

Fact.

Perhaps God instead created a reality wherein things behave consistently. Consistency suggest rules, such as non-contradiction. In other words, a variable that is X but at the same time not X is incoherent. Your augment here is essentially asking God for square circles. That's not how the world, and extension God, seems to function.

You're just pushing the problem aside. Now you need to know why God created a universe where square circles are impossible if that causes suffering. There are zero possible reasons for an omnipotent God to encounter a problem that forced him to create a universe where suffering was possible. You may believe a problem could be there, but your intelligence and intuition will refuse to do so.

You might also want to explore how you seem to function.

In your opinion. I believe suffering and evil to be a moral, rather than a metaphysical reality inherent in God's creative works. In other words, God although not the direct cause of suffering has though his infinite perspective nonetheless allowed this state of affairs the bring about even more good than were he to prevent suffering altogether. How can a speck of dust fairly question a nebula?

You need a deep understanding of what happens when you state "How can a speck of dust fairly question a nebula" but i would have to fight against a liter of camomile and a hammock swinging. Now that is really beyond my power.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Job 38:4

The best way to understand the Bible for a western mind is reading it pretending that the people who wrote it knew perfectly that God didn't exist.
In your spare time, open the Bible randomly and do it.
And don't believe that either.

On the contrary. In the Christian wordview, this life is even more important in its consequences than that of the materialist wordview, as your decisions here on Earth will have a tremendous impact on your eternity.

About that, i still don't understand what is wrong in indulging in pleasures like pigs.
In the Christian view pleasures are inconsistent and faith is indestructible. How inconsistent phenomenons would even disturb slightly an indestructible phenomenon is beyond my understanding.

Sure, but are you really going to accept that drip-feed and spend the rest of your life drooling? Or do you want a little more purpose than that? Which suggest that pleasure in of itself isn't really what life is actually about.

I don't have any life, neither i have any purpose. I just relax in the natural state of empathy that each human being shares. I do what i feel like i want to do now, and nothing else. The more you forget your purposes, the more you relax in your inborn empathy, the more tremendously helpful you are to the world. I don't do drugs either, because go buying them and feeling them is way too tiring. However i enjoyed many years ago some months of utter cannabis abuse.

Is this an actual point or are you just indulging in your own sentimentality? You do realise were it not for the ability to feel pain, you'd probably not live very long.

I feel hunger each morning and each evening and that isn't painful at all, yet i eat each day. Come on. God created the entire universe. Having human beings living long without feeling pain is a walk in the park for God.

Ah, but God could create pain, but not create pain you counter. But you're not going to convince many with such word games. Because that's all you're doing when you insist that non-contradiction should not apply to omnipotence.

I don't want to convince no one that God is not there. The best outcome here is to realize that God is a waste of time.

 

[Parsimony]

If you have a soul do you need food.

Given that I hold the "soul" to be the same as the human body and mind, yes.

 

[Underground]

Given that I hold the "soul" to be the same as the human body and mind, yes.

You're a strange Christian, and i don't understand the reasons that keep you stuck inside Christianity. Danger is a delicious vibe.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

freewill. you don't have an argument dude.

I'm curious to know how natural disasters and terminal diseases are caused by this "free will" you speak of.:sarcastic

 

[Underground]

People Disappoint... Pizza Is Eternal

You just have to look for the Interior Pizza you can found inside each human being.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

You just have to look for the Interior Pizza you can found inside each human being.

Amen, Brother/Sister

 

[Parsimony]

You're a strange Christian, and i don't understand the reasons that keep you stuck inside Christianity. Danger is a delicious vibe.

The Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that the soul is the body.

 

[idav]

I'm curious to know how natural disasters and terminal diseases are caused by this "free will" you speak of.:sarcastic

Free will can exist with constraints.