A omnipotent, omnibenevolent God and human beings suffering

[s2a]

God is omnipotent.
God is omnibenevolent.

Any argument to justify suffering is invalid. Any.

Why do you keep wasting your time with theisms? Can't you see the rubbish they're made of?

"God allows suffering to exist because we wouldn't know pleasure", but he is omnipotent. He could allow human beings to know pleasure without knowing suffering, or even to know suffering without knowing suffering, as God as no limitations, including logic. "God made us free to choose", but he is omnipotent. He could've created human beings free to chose that were not free to choose, as he is omnipotent. His omnipotence makes any reason to justify suffering utterly invalid.
"The real life is the life eternal life beyond death, what we do here doesn't matter at all, but this sounds cruel like someone having fun looking at his 3 years old kid having nightmares just because they are not real. And by the way, God could've made us having nightmares without having nightmares.

Also, suffering is not the existential phenomenon theists want you to believe.
Any powerful enough opium alkaloid, as long it's binding to opioid receptors, suppresses pain and psychological suffering completely.
Suffering -Don't pretend you know it's not true before you tried - is just some signaling in our brain. And yet theists have been wasting time, paper and ink writing tons and tons of useless theories about how suffering is God's compassion and legions of retarded masochists enjoyed suffering all their life.
A signaling in our brain! It wouldn't have been so difficult! Just a switch turned off!

I would be immensely glad to know what you think about this.

Since you asked...

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...6151-so-what-s-so-great-about.html#post187645

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...8744-how-disprove-god-believer-no-really.html

 

[Glaurung]

Fact.

No, just your ideology.

Now you need to know why God created a universe where square circles are impossible if that causes suffering.

The answer is obvious, such a universe can't exist because it's definitionally incoherent. The point is that a square circle is a meaningless concept. Asking for a free will that is not free, but is actually free simultaneously, is also effectively not asking for anything at all, because for anything to exist it must have qualities (such as being free) and the very nature of having qualities exudes qualities that are in contradiction to an object's qualities. (such as being determined)

But, but, omnipotence! No, word games and sophistry! Reality either exists or it does not. To exist is to have qualities, and this even includes God. For instance, God cannot be and not be.

You need a deep understanding of what happens when you state "How can a speck of dust fairly question a nebula" but i would have to fight against a liter of camomile and a hammock swinging. Now that is really beyond my power.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're even saying here.

The best way to understand the Bible for a western mind is reading it pretending that the people who wrote it knew perfectly that God didn't exist.
In your spare time, open the Bible randomly and do it.
And don't believe that either.

Are you even trying to say anything relevant?

About that, i still don't understand what is wrong in indulging in pleasures like pigs.

One of the strange things about excess, it has a way of making people unhealthy, sick and miserable in the long run. Perhaps the moral demand for moderation is not the kill-joy puritanism you construe it to be, but actually in your best interests if you want health and happiness in the long run. Proper Christian teaching is not that physical pleasure is evil (that's actually a heresy) but that there is a wider context to what is and isn't appropriate. An example, pre-martial sex was very dangerous before the age of contraception and antibiotics. So the moral obligation to keep sexual activity with a marriage context where children can be raised healthily and disease avoided by monogamy, starts to make sense. What about drunkenness? That's a sin too. Again, getting smashed every Friday may be fun in the short term, but the consequence is liver cirrhosis twenty years or so later. The moral obligation for moderation is actually about your own best interests.

In the Christian view pleasures are inconsistent and faith is indestructible. How inconsistent phenomenons would even disturb slightly an indestructible phenomenon is beyond my understanding.

You're just stringing words together. Faith isn't some thing that exists. Faith is just the conscious commitment to religious precepts.

I don't want to convince no one that God is not there. The best outcome here is to realize that God is a waste of time.

I'm actually starting to think engaging you is the real waste.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

Relax, nobody has to go if they don't want to..
The guy dying on the cross next to Jesus wanted to go and said- "Hey JC man, I got no beef with you, remember me when I'm dead and gone will ya?"
and Jesus replied "Chill dood, today you'll be with me in paradise".

"Paradise" means "nice heavenly place", so it doesn't really matter what it is or where it is..
A golfer once asked Billy Graham- "Will there be golf courses in heaven?" to which Graham replied "Yes, if you want them to be"
So maybe heaven is like a giant holodeck where we can run any program we want; I think I'd like one where I'm in the Enterprise sick bay being mothered, pampered, fussed over and given tricorder scans by Nurse Christine Chappel, it'd be pure heaven!
Computer,run program..

 

[rusra02]

I believe the Bible answers the question: why do we suffer? It is humans themselves who cause most of the suffering today, IMO. Even the sicknesses and death we all suffer are the result of human actions. (Romans 5:12) Blaming God for man's suffering is like a man who hits his own head repeatedly with an iron hammer, and then blames God for not stopping him. And if God had stopped him, he would then denounce God for taking away his right to destroy himself. I believe the Bible reveals God's purpose to end all suffering in his time and way. (Revelation 21:3-5) Meanwhile, he has provided answers to such questions as 'why do we suffer'.

 

[Underground]

Amen, Brother/Sister

Peace and Love!

The Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that the soul is the body.

Jehovah's Witnesses?

No, just your ideology.

No, fact.

The answer is obvious, such a universe can't exist because it's definitionally incoherent. The point is that a square circle is a meaningless concept. Asking for a free will that is not free, but is actually free simultaneously, is also effectively not asking for anything at all, because for anything to exist it must have qualities (such as being free) and the very nature of having qualities exudes qualities that are in contradiction to an object's qualities. (such as being determined)

You've been saying all your life that God is ineffable, carefully avoiding any occasion to really experience it, probably just visualizing mentally some lightful place somewhere higher than the sky.
God is omnipotent. Your logic is limited. God doesn't care if something is meaningless, because he created the meaning.
Now, this is an experience of the ineffability of God. You can't even visualize it. If you try, you go mad, and you refuse it.
And unless you go mad, it is not theology neither faith: it is sheer, worthless mental masturbation. And when death will come, it won't be of any use.
Please go mad.

But, but, omnipotence! No, word games and sophistry! Reality either exists or it does not. To exist is to have qualities, and this even includes God. For instance, God cannot be and not be.

That is just your mind and your logic.
If i were in your shoes, i'd just drop some acid. Acid is per se worthless, but you would see all your theology collapse with your conscience in no time and that would be useful, you would understand. Finding something that even acid can't collapse, that is spirituality. Your spirituality is vulnerable to acid, how do you expect death not to burn it away instantly.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're even saying here.

I know you don't.

Are you even trying to say anything relevant?

Are you even trying to understand?

One of the strange things about excess, it has a way of making people unhealthy, sick and miserable in the long run. Perhaps the moral demand for moderation is not the kill-joy puritanism you construe it to be, but actually in your best interests if you want health and happiness in the long run. Proper Christian teaching is not that physical pleasure is evil (that's actually a heresy) but that there is a wider context to what is and isn't appropriate. An example, pre-martial sex was very dangerous before the age of contraception and antibiotics. So the moral obligation to keep sexual activity with a marriage context where children can be raised healthily and disease avoided by monogamy, starts to make sense. What about drunkenness? That's a sin too. Again, getting smashed every Friday may be fun in the short term, but the consequence is liver cirrhosis twenty years or so later. The moral obligation for moderation is actually about your own best interests.

This is ridiculous. Now contraception and antibiotics are available and each human being could just have sex all day long, and smoke some cannabis, and drink some alcohol, and you know perfectly nothing bad would happen.
Please let the feeling that you're missing something beautiful burn you.

You're just stringing words together. Faith isn't some thing that exists. Faith is just the conscious commitment to religious precepts.

That conscious commitment is a balloon inside a storm.

I'm actually starting to think engaging you is the real waste.

This is actually the first time in your life you have such an occasion, and it may be the last.

 

[Parsimony]

Jehovah's Witnesses?

You've never heard of them?

You know, your initial claim that "any argument to justify suffering is invalid" sort of collapses when you allow God to bend logic. If He can rewrite the laws of logic and morality, as you say He can, then He can make any kind of suffering justifiable.

 

[Underground]

You've never heard of them?

Sure, i'm just surprised you would even consider them in such a discussion.

You know, your initial claim that "any argument to justify suffering is invalid" sort of collapses when you allow God to bend logic. If He can rewrite the laws of logic and morality, as you say He can, then He can make any kind of suffering justifiable.

Each argument about God collapses sooner ol later, because there is no such thing. Either you put him beyond logic, and theology is useless, either you put him below logic, and you find contraddictions.

 

[s2a]

Relax, nobody has to go if they don't want to..
The guy dying on the cross next to Jesus wanted to go and said- "Hey JC man, I got no beef with you, remember me when I'm dead and gone will ya?"
and Jesus replied "Chill dood, today you'll be with me in paradise".

Kind of you to offer reply, but when you said:

"Relax, nobody has to go if they don't want to."
pretty much directly contradicts the veritable essence of Christian beliefs (and most theistic beliefs). In essence...why "believe" if there is NO promise of any after-life?. In that after-life, there are either consequences attendant, or here are none.

You then followed with:

"Paradise" means "nice heavenly place", so it doesn't really matter what it is or where it is..

So, the "answer" is..."don't ask?"

You really did not read my referenced thread, did you?

A golfer once asked Billy Graham- "Will there be golf courses in heaven?" to which Graham replied "Yes, if you want them to be"
So maybe heaven is like a giant holodeck where we can run any program we want; I think I'd like one where I'm in the Enterprise sick bay being mothered, pampered, fussed over and given tricorder scans by Nurse Christine Chappel, it'd be pure heaven!
Computer,run program..

Cool. You don't really know. As I suspected. Thanks anyway.

 

[Glaurung]

God is omnipotent. Your logic is limited. God doesn't care if something is meaningless, because he created the meaning.

No, you're playing word games with the concept of omnipotence. I've explained why, but...

Ah hell with it, you're just a troll.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

So maybe heaven is like a giant holodeck where we can run any program we want..

Cool. You don't really know. As I suspected. Thanks anyway.

Nobody knows where or what heaven is!..
Jesus said- "I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going" (John 8:14/ 8:23)

PS- Apart from the Nurse Chappel 'heavenly holodeck' program, I'd also like to run the 'Doctor Quinn Medicine Woman' one where I stagger into her surgery with a rattler bite to my calf and she has to (gulp) suck out the venom.
Then she sits up with me all night dabbing my fevered brow with a cool damp cloth as I toss and turn in delirium fighting to stay alive, whispering to me "Hang in there baby...stay with me...we'll ride it out together"..

Oops sorry, was I rambling? (insert embarrassed emoticon here)

 

[Underground]

No, you're playing word games with the concept of omnipotence. I've explained why, but...

Have a good time mentally masturbating on the Bible!

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

I believe the Bible answers the question: why do we suffer? It is humans themselves who cause most of the suffering today, IMO. Even the sicknesses and death we all suffer are the result of human actions. (Romans 5:12)'.[/URL]

Ah... It's so comforting to know that as I watched my devoutly Christian, non-smoking, healthy-eating aunt being eaten away by terminal cancer, that it was all her fault all along, somehow. :sarcastic

 

[idav]

Ah... It's so comforting to know that as I watched my devoutly Christian, non-smoking, healthy-eating aunt being eaten away by terminal cancer, that it was all her fault all along, somehow. :sarcastic

God is just a terminal making machine. He keep producing more of these diseases and we keep trying to bat them down. I recommend a better healing system like the one Wolverine has.

 

[Nada]

Nobody knows where or what heaven is!..

HEAVEN

The Hebrew sha·ma´yim (always in the plural), which is rendered “heaven(s),” seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9) The etymology of the Greek word for heaven (ou·ra·nos´) is uncertain.

Physical Heavens. The full scope of the physical heavens is embraced by the original-language term. The context usually provides sufficient information to determine which area of the physical heavens is meant.

Heavens of earth’s atmosphere. “The heaven(s)” may apply to the full range of earth’s atmosphere in which dew and frost form (Ge 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (De 4:17; Pr 30:19; Mt 6:26), the winds blow (Ps 78:26), lightning flashes (Lu 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Jos 10:11; 1Ki 18:45; Isa 55:10; Ac 14:17). “The sky” is sometimes meant, that is, the apparent or visual dome or vault arching over the earth.—Mt 16:1-3; Ac 1:10,*11.

This atmospheric region corresponds generally to the “expanse [Heb., ra·qi´a`]” formed during the second creative period, described at Genesis 1:6-8. It is evidently to this ‘heaven’ that Genesis 2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17 refer in speaking of the creation of “the heavens and the earth.”—See EXPANSE.

When the expanse of atmosphere was formed, earth’s surface waters were separated from other waters above the expanse. This explains the expression used with regard to the global Flood of Noah’s day, that “all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” (Ge 7:11; compare Pr 8:27,*28.) At the Flood, the waters suspended above the expanse apparently descended as if by certain channels, as well as in rainfall. When this vast reservoir had emptied itself, such “floodgates of the heavens” were, in effect, “stopped up.”—Ge 8:2.

Outer space. The physical “heavens” extend through earth’s atmosphere and beyond to the regions of outer space with their stellar bodies, “all the army of the heavens”—sun, moon, stars, and constellations. (De 4:19; Isa 13:10; 1Co 15:40,*41; Heb 11:12) The first verse of the Bible describes the creation of such starry heavens prior to the development of earth for human habitation. (Ge 1:1) These heavens show forth God’s glory, even as does the expanse of atmosphere, being the work of God’s “fingers.” (Ps 8:3; 19:1-6) The divinely appointed “statutes of the heavens” control all such celestial bodies. Astronomers, despite their modern equipment and advanced mathematical knowledge, are still unable to comprehend these statutes fully. (Job 38:33; Jer 33:25) Their findings, however, confirm the impossibility of man’s placing a measurement upon such heavens or of counting the stellar bodies. (Jer 31:37; 33:22; see STAR.) Yet they are numbered and named by God.—Ps 147:4; Isa 40:26.

“Midheaven” and ‘extremities of heavens.’ The expression “midheaven” applies to the region within earth’s expanse of atmosphere where birds, such as the eagle, fly. (Re 8:13; 14:6; 19:17; De 4:11 [Heb., “heart of the heavens”]) Somewhat similar is the expression “between the earth and the heavens.” (1Ch 21:16; 2Sa 18:9) The advance of Babylon’s attackers from “the extremity of the heavens” evidently means their coming to her from the distant horizon (where earth and sky appear to meet and the sun appears to rise and set). (Isa 13:5; compare Ps 19:4-6.) Similarly “from the four extremities of the heavens” apparently refers to four points of the compass, thus indicating a coverage of the four quarters of the earth. (Jer 49:36; compare Da 8:8; 11:4; Mt 24:31; Mr 13:27.) As the heavens surround the earth on all sides, Jehovah’s vision of everything “under the whole heavens” embraces all the globe.—Job 28:24.

The cloudy skies. Another term, the Hebrew sha´chaq, is also used to refer to the “skies” or their clouds. (De 33:26; Pr 3:20; Isa 45:8) This word has the root meaning of something beaten fine or pulverized, as the “film of dust” (sha´chaq) at Isaiah 40:15. There is a definite appropriateness in this meaning, inasmuch as clouds form when warm air, rising from the earth, becomes cooled to what is known as the dewpoint, and the water vapor in it condenses into minute particles sometimes called water dust. (Compare Job 36:27,*28; see CLOUD.) Adding to the appropriateness, the visual effect of the blue dome of the sky is caused by the diffusion of the rays of the sun by gas molecules and other particles (including dust) composing the atmosphere. By God’s formation of such atmosphere, he has, in effect, ‘beaten out the skies hard like a molten mirror,’ giving a definite limit, or clear demarcation, to the atmospheric blue vault above man.—Job 37:18.

“Heavens of the heavens.” The expression “heavens of the heavens” is considered to refer to the highest heavens and would embrace the complete extent of the physical heavens, however vast, since the heavens extend out from the earth in all directions.—De 10:14; Ne 9:6.

Solomon, the constructor of the temple at Jerusalem, stated that the “heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain God. (1Ki 8:27) As the Creator of the heavens, Jehovah’s position is far above them all, and “his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven.” (Ps 148:13) Jehovah measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger. (Isa 40:12) Solomon’s statement does not mean that God has no specific place of residence. Nor does it mean that he is omnipresent in the sense of being literally everywhere and in everything. This can be seen from the fact that Solomon also spoke of Jehovah as hearing “from the heavens, your established place of dwelling,” that is, the heavens of the spirit realm.—1Ki 8:30,*39.

Thus, in the physical sense, the term “heavens” covers a wide range. While it may refer to the farthest reaches of universal space, it may also refer to something that is simply high, or lofty, to a degree beyond the ordinary. Thus, those aboard storm-tossed ships are said to “go up to the heavens, .*.*. down to the bottoms.” (Ps 107:26) So, too, the builders of the Tower of Babel intended to put up a structure with its “top in the heavens,” a “skyscraper,” as it were. (Ge 11:4; compare Jer 51:53.) And the prophecy at Amos 9:2 speaks of men as ‘going up to the heavens’ in a vain effort to elude Jehovah’s judgments, evidently meaning that they would try to find escape in the high mountainous regions.

Spiritual Heavens. The same original-language words used for the physical heavens are also applied to the spiritual heavens. As has been seen, Jehovah God does not reside in the physical heavens, being a Spirit. However, since he is “the High and Lofty One” who resides in “the height” (Isa 57:15), the basic sense of that which is “lifted up” or “lofty” expressed in the Hebrew-language word makes it appropriate to describe God’s “lofty abode of holiness and beauty.” (Isa 63:15; Ps 33:13,*14; 115:3) As the Maker of the physical heavens (Ge 14:19; Ps 33:6), Jehovah is also their Owner. (Ps 115:15,*16) Whatever is his pleasure to do in them, he does, including miraculous acts.—Ps 135:6.

In many texts, therefore, the “heavens” stand for God himself and his sovereign position. His throne is in the heavens, that is, in the spirit realm over which he also rules. (Ps 103:19-21; 2Ch 20:6; Mt 23:22; Ac 7:49) From his supreme or ultimate position, Jehovah, in effect, ‘looks down’ upon the physical heavens and earth (Ps 14:2; 102:19; 113:6), and from this lofty position also speaks, answers petitions, and renders judgment. (1Ki 8:49; Ps 2:4-6; 76:8; Mt 3:17) So we read that Hezekiah and Isaiah, in the face of a grave threat, “kept praying .*.*. and crying to the heavens for aid.” (2Ch 32:20; compare 2Ch 30:27.) Jesus, too, used the heavens as representing God when asking the religious leaders whether the source of John’s baptism was “from heaven or from men.” (Mt 21:25; compare Joh 3:27.) The prodigal son confessed to having sinned “against heaven” as well as against his own father. (Lu 15:18,*21) “The kingdom of the heavens,” then, means not merely that it is based in and rules from the spiritual heavens but also that it is “the kingdom of God.”—Da 2:44; Mt 4:17; 21:43; 2Ti 4:18.



THERE IS MUCH MORE.CLICK THE LINK FOR MORE INFO.




Heaven — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[rusra02]

Ah... It's so comforting to know that as I watched my devoutly Christian, non-smoking, healthy-eating aunt being eaten away by terminal cancer, that it was all her fault all along, somehow. :sarcastic

Who said it was her fault? We received the legacy of sin and death from the first man Adam, as Romans 5:12 explains.

 

[Underground]

Who said it was her fault? We received the legacy of sin and death from the first man Adam, as Romans 5:12 explains.

Look inside yourself and find a light that judges Romans 5:12 worthless rubbish.

Hint: Adam never existed.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Ah... It's so comforting to know that as I watched my devoutly Christian, non-smoking, healthy-eating aunt being eaten away by terminal cancer, that it was all her fault all along, somehow. :sarcastic

Nah, Satan can be a bit of a rotter you know-
Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16),then he cured her.

Which brings us to the question "who or what IS Satan anyway?"
It's a deep subject and needs its own thread, but one idea I like is that Satan is an invisible mass of bad vibes generated by nasty human thoughts that goes sloshing around disturbing this fragile "dream" we call "reality" to cause illnesses and natural disasters and stuff, hence the warning to us to only radiate GOOD vibes that Satan can't feed off-

"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" {Philp 4:8)

 

[idav]

It's a deep subject and needs its own thread, but one idea I like is that Satan is an invisible mass of bad vibes generated by nasty human thoughts that goes sloshing around disturbing this fragile "dream" we call "reality" to cause illnesses and natural disasters and stuff, hence the warning to us to only radiate GOOD vibes that Satan can't feed off-

[youtube]OnbZN54IZNE[/youtube]
Water Crystals and Emotion - YouTube

What does Satan do to me when I listen to heavy metal?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Nah, Satan can be a bit of a rotter you know-
Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16),then he cured her.

Which brings us to the question "who or what IS Satan anyway?"
It's a deep subject and needs its own thread, but one idea I like is that Satan is an invisible mass of bad vibes generated by nasty human thoughts that goes sloshing around disturbing this fragile "dream" we call "reality" to cause illnesses and natural disasters and stuff, hence the warning to us to only radiate GOOD vibes that Satan can't feed off-

"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" {Philp 4:8)

Yet the Christian God created Satan anyway, despite knowing beforehand the torment that humanity would endure at his hands because of it. If you knew beforehand that your future son would be a serial killer, would you conceive him anyway? Would that be a moral thing to do?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..What does Satan do to me when I listen to heavy metal?

Why should he want to do anything to you?
Music is just music whether it's classical, pop or heavy metal..
In fact HM has got a rebellious feel about it that pretty much ties in with Christianity-
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil.." (Eph 6:12)
"Don't conform to the pattern of this world" (Rom 12:2)
"Don't love the world or the things in it," (1 John 2:15-17)
"You were dead when you followed the ways of the world" (Eph 2:1/2)

Jesus said-