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A question for creationists

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
nnmartin said:
.......this is exactly the same line of reasoning the Evolutionists take, namely: Life and Evolution occur due to the Laws of Physics.

You are confusing evolution with abiogenesis. Abiogenesis deals with how life began. Evolution only deals with what happened after life began. When Charles Darwin wrote 'On the Origin of Species,' he was a theist, not an atheist. In the U.S., Christians are the largest group of supporters of evolution by far.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
The question of God/energy is one based on HOW they exist, HOW they are. God, by most believers' definition, exists concretely in some way, like energy. However, a LAW, does not have concrete existence, it is abstract. One cannot point to "law", like they can to energy, and, at least theoretically, God. There is no reason to think that the 'creator' of the universe had to have intelligence, will, creativity, or any other personality or characteristic of the sort.
 

Firepac

New Member
When you can find an example of energy coming from nothing, let me know. Until then, energy is merely a transfer of pre-existent forces, even so called "Free Energy" is not really Free-energy.

You just completely contradicted yourself. You previous said that energy existing on its own violates the laws of physics which has absolutely nothing to do with energy coming from nothing.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If an eternally existing God is a reasonable possibility, why isn't eternally existing energy in a naturalistic universe also a reasonble possibility?
Even if this universe had a beginning, there is not any credible evidence that no energy existed prior to the beginning of the universe.
Since I am an agnostic, I am not necessarily promoting naturalism, or theism.

According to Scripture, energy's force existed before the material universe came into existence.
Isaiah [40v26] mentions God's active strength and power.
God supplied the needed abundant dynamic energy used to create.
-Psalm 104v30
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You are confusing evolution with abiogenesis. Abiogenesis deals with how life began. Evolution only deals with what happened after life began. When Charles Darwin wrote 'On the Origin of Species,' he was a theist, not an atheist. In the U.S., Christians are the largest group of supporters of evolution by far.

'So-called Christians'. If Christendom believes in evolution that is because the clergy taught them evolution instead of creation.

With Adam, the spark of life [spirit] began when God breathed the 'breath of life' into Adam.

-Genesis 2v7; Deuteronomy 4v32; Job 33v4
 

ForeverFaithful

Son Worshiper
Energy and matter are part of creation and exist within space time.
The same reason I can't believe in Pagan gods which are part of creation
Something outside of Time and Space had to have created them both, and if God exists out side of Time logic dictates that God never had a beginning at any point in time.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Energy and matter are part of creation and exist within space time.
The same reason I can't believe in Pagan gods which are part of creation
Something outside of Time and Space had to have created them both, and if God exists out side of Time logic dictates that God never had a beginning at any point in time.

So, then is 'time' a creation or not?

For each day that we can think ahead we can always think back each day.

True, God had no beginning according to Psalm 90v2.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If an eternally existing God is a reasonable possibility, why isn't eternally existing energy in a naturalistic universe also a reasonble possibility?

Even if this universe had a beginning, there is not any credible evidence that no energy existed prior to the beginning of the universe.

Since I am an agnostic, I am not necessarily promoting naturalism, or theism.

How could energy exist without a source?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
So, then is 'time' a creation or not?

For each day that we can think ahead we can always think back each day.

True, God had no beginning according to Psalm 90v2.


talking about a god that we know historically his origins is one thing


But space time has nothing to do with a deity and the concept was foriegn to them, your playing connect the dots on two different boards and one of those has not been proven to be a part of reality



Now as far as time goes. Space and space time were created in the singularity over 13 billion years ago.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
How could energy exist without a source?


I dont follow the thought the all came from something smaller then a pinhead. That is unknown.

Im understanding it as a group of gasses and material of unknown size rapidly expanded [not exploded] and all the energy released when it expanded was the total energy in which exist in our universe today.

The fact is we dont know the origin of this energy but we do know it expanded and that is what we measure today.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The fact is we dont know the origin of this energy but we do know it expanded and that is what we measure today.


naturally, because if you keep pouring energy into something, the matter expands

However, how did the energy manage to create so many different types of matter and how did that matter become so organized? Why did some of the matter become hydrogen and some helium and some oxygen and some... and some... and some... and some....and some....
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
naturally, because if you keep pouring energy into something, the matter expands

However, how did the energy manage to create so many different types of matter and how did that matter become so organized? Why did some of the matter become hydrogen and some helium and some oxygen and some... and some... and some... and some....and some....
Those are some good questions. Have you ever considering studying physics? Perhaps reading a book by Hawkins, or Greene?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
naturally, because if you keep pouring energy into something, the matter expands

However, how did the energy manage to create so many different types of matter and how did that matter become so organized? Why did some of the matter become hydrogen and some helium and some oxygen and some... and some... and some... and some....and some....


energy was not poured into anything.


everything in the periodic table of elements was created from the singuarity and the evolution of galaxies as stars are born and die. During the singularity they may have not all existed but the foundation for all the materials was.


Matter organizes by gravity and chemical and physical processes combined with heating and cooling and fusion.

the nature is space is one heck of a blender :)



as stated great question and one needs multiple books to begin to explain it half way
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Pegg said:
.......as we know, energy cannot exist independently of a source

Consider the following:


ASP: A Universe from Nothing


astrosociety.org said:
Astronomical Society of the Pacific


Insights from modern physics suggest that our wondrous universe may be the ultimate free lunch.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The idea of a zero-energy universe, together with inflation, suggests that all one needs is just a tiny bit of energy to get the whole thing started (that is, a tiny volume of energy in which inflation can begin). The universe then experiences inflationary expansion, but without creating net energy.



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What produced the energy before inflation? This is perhaps the ultimate question. As crazy as it might seem, the energy may have come out of nothing! The meaning of "nothing" is somewhat ambiguous here. It might be the vacuum in some pre-existing space and time, or it could be nothing at all – that is, all concepts of space and time were created with the universe itself.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quantum theory, and specifically Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, provide a natural explanation for how that energy may have come out of nothing. Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called "virtual particle" pairs are known as "quantum fluctuations." Indeed, laboratory experiments have proven that quantum fluctuations occur everywhere, all the time. Virtual particle pairs (such as electrons and positrons) directly affect the energy levels of atoms, and the predicted energy levels disagree with the experimentally measured levels unless quantum fluctuations are taken into account.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Perhaps many quantum fluctuations occurred before the birth of our universe. Most of them quickly disappeared. But one lived sufficiently long and had the right conditions for inflation to have been initiated. Thereafter, the original tiny volume inflated by an enormous factor, and our macroscopic universe was born. The original particle-antiparticle pair (or pairs) may have subsequently annihilated each other – but even if they didn’t, the violation of energy conservation would be minuscule, not large enough to be measurable.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If this admittedly speculative hypothesis is correct, then the answer to the ultimate question is that the universe is the ultimate free lunch! It came from nothing, and its total energy is zero, but it nevertheless has incredible structure and complexity. There could even be many other such universes, spatially distinct from ours.[/FONT][/FONT]

So, it may very well be possible to get something from nothing.

Anyway, even if a God exists, Deism is a much better choice for a worldview than Christianity is.
 
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shawn001

Well-Known Member
There is something in the universe which is very real in physics called negative energy. There are exactly equal parts of positive and negative energy in the universe and they cancel each other out to zero.

This explains it

[youtube]WQhd05ZVYWg[/youtube]
Curiosity with Stephen Hawking, Did God Create the Universe? - YouTube


However most cosmologists nowadays don't believe this is the only universe.

Even empty space in a vacuum is filled with virutal particles that pop in and out of existence.
 
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