A Question for fellow Christians.

[Ratiocinative]

Ratio, I actually agree with quite a bit of what you have said. I just think you're over-simplifying and over-generalizing.

Over-simplifying and over-generalizing what? That Jesus is the only way to salvation? John 14:6 is pretty clear to me, no one comes to the father except though Jesus. John 3:18 is also very clear, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

I'm not sure whether this is directed to me specifically, but I can tell you that I have already completed the search and have found the truth.

No, I wasn't directing that at anyone in particular, it was just a 'food for thought' type question. But I will direct this at you:

Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Katzpur]

Over-simplifying and over-generalizing what? That Jesus is the only way to salvation? John 14:6 is pretty clear to me, no one comes to the father except though Jesus. John 3:18 is also very clear, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

You still haven't shown me how a person can believe in someone he's never even heard of.

No, I wasn't directing that at anyone in particular, it was just a 'food for thought' type question. But I will direct this at you:

Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Great verse!

 

[Francine]

I understood Francine's post to say that it was the denial of access to the fruit of the Tree of Life that caused their fall to mortality.

Mortality is not a primary consequence of the fall, but a secondary consequence. The primary consequence of the fall was the loss of a close relationship between man and God. And if you think about it, mortality in that event is more a blessing than a curse.

 

[Starfish]

Mortality is not a primary consequence of the fall, but a secondary consequence. The primary consequence of the fall was the loss of a close relationship between man and God. And if you think about it, mortality in that event is more a blessing than a curse.

The primary consequence of the fall, as you put it, is spiritual death, meaning the separation between us and God. The secondary consequence, mortality, is physical death, or the separation of the spirit and body. I think we agree here. These two deaths are the result of the fall.

To take it further: Christ overcame the physical death through his resurrection, meaning our bodies and spirits will reunite. Christ also overcame spiritual death through the atonement. He paid the price for our sins enabling us to be reunited with God.

 

[Ratiocinative]

You still haven't shown me how a person can believe in someone he's never even heard of.

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things. You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so. Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ, and it isn't anyones fault but your own if you refuse to do so. There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

 

[Sola'lor]

Mortality is not a primary consequence of the fall, but a secondary consequence. The primary consequence of the fall was the loss of a close relationship between man and God. And if you think about it, mortality in that event is more a blessing than a curse.

I agree with you. Seperation between us and God is Spiritual Death. Then we also have mortal bodies that die. Both are the result of the fall. Only through Christ's atonement can we overcome both. I agree that mortality is more of a blessing than a curse. I believe it was all part of God's plan that Adam and Eve became mortal. Satan didn't disrupt God's plan in the least when he tempted Eve. He was just a pawn.

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things. You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so. Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ, and it isn't anyones fault but your own if you refuse to do so. There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

I agree with you overall. There are people on this planet thwill never have the chance in this life to learn of Christ. The purpose of missionary work is to bring the gospel to as many people as possible. But I also believe that those who didn't have the chance to hear about Christ will have the chance in the Spirit World. There is spiritual missionary work going on in the spirit world and every will hear about Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things.

Yeah, we went over it, but you didn't give me any answers that made sense. I'm talking about the people who never had a chance to hear about Christ. What do you think will be their fate?

You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so.

Nobody's suggesting that, Ratio.

Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ...

Except for the ones who didn't.

There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

I agree. The Bible says that salvation is through Christ alone, but it's pretty vague about what happens to those who die without knowing that. You know... the hundreds of millions of people you are simply pretending never existed.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Yeah, we went over it, but you didn't give me any answers that made sense. I'm talking about the people who never had a chance to hear about Christ. What do you think will be their fate?

You just said you agreed with me a couple pages back. If you never make an effort to learn about God, then you can't complain about never hearing about Christ. If you seek after God then he will make sure you find him, but if you decide not to then you can't complain if you never learn about him. The Bible is very clear that Christ is the only way to heaven.

Nobody's suggesting that, Ratio.

Sure you are, what other conclusion can you come to with your thinking? If a person ignores God their entire life and makes no effort to learn about him, then dies, they're going to hell because they don't have faith in Christ. Yet, you say that they are necessarily going to hell, so they must be getting a freebie somewhere according to you.

Except for the ones who didn't.

There isn't anyone who doesn't.

I agree. The Bible says that salvation is through Christ alone, but it's pretty vague about what happens to those who die without knowing that. You know... the hundreds of millions of people you are simply pretending never existed.

How is that vague? Faith in Christ = saved, no faith in Christ = not saved.

 

[Sola'lor]

You just said you agreed with me a couple pages back. If you never make an effort to learn about God, then you can't complain about never hearing about Christ. If you seek after God then he will make sure you find him, but if you decide not to then you can't complain if you never learn about him. The Bible is very clear that Christ is the only way to heaven.

What about those who honestly search for God and find Allah or tribal gods? There's nowhere for them to learn about Christ so their only option is the god(s) of the area where they live. Are they going to be condemned because they never had a chance to learn of Christ in this life?

 

[ChristineES]

I believe that God would not condemn someone if the said person never had a chance to know Him. Unfortunately, not a lot of Christians agree with me.

 

[Katzpur]

You just said you agreed with me a couple pages back. If you never make an effort to learn about God, then you can't complain about never hearing about Christ. If you seek after God then he will make sure you find him, but if you decide not to then you can't complain if you never learn about him. The Bible is very clear that Christ is the only way to heaven.

Sure you are, what other conclusion can you come to with your thinking? If a person ignores God their entire life and makes no effort to learn about him, then dies, they're going to hell because they don't have faith in Christ. Yet, you say that they are necessarily going to hell, so they must be getting a freebie somewhere according to you.

There isn't anyone who doesn't.

How is that vague? Faith in Christ = saved, no faith in Christ = not saved.

I give up.

 

[blackout]

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things. You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so. Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ, and it isn't anyones fault but your own if you refuse to do so. There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

A freebie?!
And what constitutes "ignoring God"?

 

[apologistndenton]

On two or three Christian forums I post at, we are having numerous debates about how one is saved.

I believe that each person alive is called and it is up to each person to answer the call.

The conflicting belief is that only people God has chosen to be called are called and anyone who doesn't become saved is because God didn't choose them to be saved.

So I am wondering what the Christians at the RF believe. Do you believe anyone can be saved or only those chosen by God to be saved?

In the Bible we are expressly told that God's elect are "chosen to salvation"

 

[Katzpur]

In the Bible we are expressly told that God's elect are "chosen to salvation"

And I guess He just created the rest of us to be His eternal firewood. Sounds like a truly loving Father in Heaven.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Biblically speaking, God knows the hearts of men and women before they choose to dismiss him. It's not that he wants eternal firewood, he loves us all very deeply--more than any of us know now. He show that on the cross. The point is even though he already knows who's going to make or not still doesn't mean he's going to roll up the carpet before we have a chance at freewill.

 

[Sola'lor]

Biblically speaking, God knows the hearts of men and women before they choose to dismiss him. It's not that he wants eternal firewood, he loves us all very deeply--more than any of us know now. He show that on the cross. The point is even though he already knows who's going to make or not still doesn't mean he's going to roll up the carpet before we have a chance at freewill.

GREAT POST!!!

 

[Katzpur]

Biblically speaking, God knows the hearts of men and women before they choose to dismiss him. It's not that he wants eternal firewood, he loves us all very deeply--more than any of us know now. He show that on the cross. The point is even though he already knows who's going to make or not still doesn't mean he's going to roll up the carpet before we have a chance at freewill.

The fact that God knows us as perfectly as He does and therefore being able to know what kinds of choices we'll make when presented with a certain set of circumstances is not the same thing as Him having chosen to save some and damn others before they were ever born.

 

[Aenea]

And I guess He just created the rest of us to be His eternal firewood. Sounds like a truly loving Father in Heaven.

It is written in Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

 

[Troublemane]

If God is 100% one with all existence (which I believe firmly to be the case), then salvation cannot be a condition of joining God, but only to a state of ignorance that God is everything already. Once you become aware of others being part of God/the Divine Unity (including yourself) then salvation begins. Salvation continues as you begin to treat others accordingly, respecting their inherent sacredness as part of the divine unity. There is no magical transformation of some invisible substance, there is no laying on of hands by a preacher, no words or incantations that will make you saved. You have to realize it yourself, so it cannot be predestined.

If salvation is merely the recognition that we are all part of God already there is no guarantee that anyone will realize it, or having realized it then treating others accordingly. Those who actually do realize this wont necessarily equate it with being "saved", just as those who think they are "saved" (due to some religious ritual perhaps)may not be able to see others as being divine beings inherently.

Its not that the two cannot coincide, its that the actual number of people claiming to be "saved" is not necessarily the same set of people who indeed are.

 

[Katzpur]

It is written in Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

So, do you suppose He flips a coin, or what?