A question to those who question trinity

[Riverwolf]

I'm sorry, but the existence of a deity by defenition eliminates free will.

I never argued whether or not free will even exists.

And besides that, God's ego must stink since he wants only the 'special' people in heaven, who are 'worthy' of him.

Reading the Bible literally, I can see that. But only in literal interpretation.

The entire idea God had is blowing up in his face, because it was senseless to begin with.

Of course, that depends on what that idea even was.

 

[Riverwolf]

a sacrifice is made/given as an atonement for sin. Your right He did teach and continues to teach with authority but not many did/does believe. As the sacrifice was made now we have a direct line to God we dont need a middle man no longer we can ask God questions . God bless

Why was a sacrifice needed? Why not just tell such a line to "be" and POOF, there it is? He's God after all; he can do that.

Teachings are all that's needed. Why a death?

 

[Riverwolf]

What did we learn from the sacrifice? turn away from things that are going to harm us. That does really seem like it was done for Him. God bless

That teaching already existed in the world.

 

[Riverwolf]

When I lived in New York and I had a chance to listen to some of the vets from the vietnam war many said that the government didnt treat them that well after returning from the war. Do you think that those soldiers wouldve still went to the war if they knew that they would have to sleep on the street, become drug addicts after being injured in the war pumped drugs to keep the pain down (my uncle went to vietnam and to this day wont take pain medication for the fear of becoming addicted) and the government basically throwing them away?God bless

That depends on the individual. Some soldiers would, some wouldn't. It depends on which ones were actually born soldiers and which ones were indoctrinated.

 

[Riverwolf]

i am confused. is Jesus God himself, or is he the 'Son of God' but of the same godhead as the father? thx

Jesus was an avatar of YHWH.

 

[Breathe]

Jesus was an avatar of YHWH.

Personally, I think that's a little harsh on Jesus, to degrade him to an avatar of such a petty god.

 

[Riverwolf]

Personally, I think that's a little harsh on Jesus, to degrade him to an avatar of such a petty god.

I only see YHWH as petty if I read the Torah and certain Kethuvim literally.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My statement that most men wouldnt sacrifice themselves and were not perfect at least that is what I meant. God bless

And what I meant is that if a god would demand that the only "perfect", innocent man be punished for the crimes of humanity, then that god is unjust and evil unless he had no other choice.

And if that god is all-powerful, then he did have another choice.

 

[xkatz]

What did Jesus do that God would've done different? God bless

Well Jesus is dead. Jesus is god. Therefore god is dead. At least according to mathematics.

God wouldn't die for your sins. That is dependency and I think god doesn't want people to depend on him all the time. We sometimes have to take action and responsibility for things we do.

 

[roddio]

Not at all, I don't see how you could think that. The sacrifice is meant to make us feel guilty, that is all. If you are talking about the teachings of Jesus Christ, I'd like to remind you that that is a different matter.

And wouldn't we be bright enough to understand what is bad for us without some bearded guy dying on a cross "for us"?

the reason He came was because we needed a savior so no we're not bright enough. God bless

 

[roddio]

And what I meant is that if a god would demand that the only "perfect", innocent man be punished for the crimes of humanity, then that god is unjust and evil unless he had no other choice.

And if that god is all-powerful, then he did have another choice.

You have shed innocent blood for guilt/sin. innocent lambs/sheep blood was shed for guilty people. So instead of keep sacrificing animals He shed the blood one time. He had another choice He couldve destroyed us all but He went with the other option. God bless

 

[roddio]

Well Jesus is dead. Jesus is god. Therefore god is dead. At least according to mathematics.

God wouldn't die for your sins. That is dependency and I think god doesn't want people to depend on him all the time. We sometimes have to take action and responsibility for things we do.

Jesus aint dead. We are to take responsibility for our actions, we will be judged by what we say and do. God bless

 

[Diederick]

You have shed innocent blood for guilt/sin. innocent lambs/sheep blood was shed for guilty people. So instead of keep sacrificing animals He shed the blood one time. He had another choice He couldve destroyed us all but He went with the other option. God bless

I thought we were beyond scapegoats... What use is it to sacrifice when you made a mistake, especially since the sacrifice is an innocent animal (either a real lamb or a Messiah-lamb). Instead of paying a fee for stupid acts, you might try trying to stop doing stupid acts.

Oh, I'm sorry, this was too small for you:
I thought we were beyond scapegoats... What use is it to sacrifice when you made a mistake, especially since the sacrifice is an innocent animal (either a real lamb or a Messiah-lamb). Instead of paying a fee for stupid acts, you might try trying to stop doing stupid acts.

 

[roddio]

I thought we were beyond scapegoats... What use is it to sacrifice when you made a mistake, especially since the sacrifice is an innocent animal (either a real lamb or a Messiah-lamb). Instead of paying a fee for stupid acts, you might try trying to stop doing stupid acts.

Oh, I'm sorry, this was too small for you:
I thought we were beyond scapegoats... What use is it to sacrifice when you made a mistake, especially since the sacrifice is an innocent animal (either a real lamb or a Messiah-lamb). Instead of paying a fee for stupid acts, you might try trying to stop doing stupid acts.

we do pay a fee we give up living a life pleasing ourselves and please God. That's a very hard fee because we've been doing what we wanted all our lives and now we have to trained and taught to please Him. God bless
does this size make you feel better?

 

[Diederick]

It does, thank you. I didn't mean to be rude...

But what is the purpose of the fee? And I'm an Atheist, by the way, so I don't live to please God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You have shed innocent blood for guilt/sin.

No, I haven't.

innocent lambs/sheep blood was shed for guilty people.

That makes no sense either.

So instead of keep sacrificing animals He shed the blood one time.

And? You just trade a large number of small unjust actions for a single gigantically unjust act. How is this better?

He had another choice He couldve destroyed us all but He went with the other option. God bless

But he would have had more options than just those two, wouldn't he? Two that come immediately to mind are:

- simply erasing humanity's "debt of sin" without having anyone killed or needing anyone to be "saved".

- coming up with some system in the first place that wouldn't result in a "debt of sin" at all.

 

[roddio]

It does, thank you. I didn't mean to be rude...

But what is the purpose of the fee? And I'm an Atheist, by the way, so I don't live to please God.

the purpose of the fee is to pay what you owe. God gave us life and we should do what He asks. Its just like your parents gave you life and when they ask you to do something do you do it? God bless

 

[roddio]

No, I haven't.


That makes no sense either.


And? You just trade a large number of small unjust actions for a single gigantically unjust act. How is this better?


But he would have had more options than just those two, wouldn't he? Two that come immediately to mind are:

- simply erasing humanity's "debt of sin" without having anyone killed or needing anyone to be "saved".

- coming up with some system in the first place that wouldn't result in a "debt of sin" at all.[/q It may seem unjust but alot of things we do is unjust, cain murdered his brother, adam and eve didnt listen to what God told them to do. We were created perfect and we chose to sin thats unjust. God chose for blood as sacrifice so He did come with a system. God bless

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It may seem unjust but alot of things we do is unjust, cain murdered his brother, adam and eve didnt listen to what God told them to do. We were created perfect and we chose to sin thats unjust.

So, you don't dispute that atonement theology is unjust; you just excuse it with the fact that lots of people do lots of unjust things?

Also, how can a perfect being choose to sin? Wouldn't the choice to sin indicate a lack of perfection?

God chose for blood as sacrifice so He did come with a system. God bless

He apparently didn't come up with a system that wouldn't create a "debt of sin".

 

[Diederick]

the purpose of the fee is to pay what you owe. God gave us life and we should do what He asks. Its just like your parents gave you life and when they ask you to do something do you do it? God bless

No, it's not what I'm talking about and it still doesn't make sense. First of all, God created us for selfish reasons, we don't owe him anything. And especially a God as cruel and misguided as ours.

Most of all, I'm talking about sacrifice, what purpose does that serve? Not an actual fee, just killing something in the name of something. It's complete rubbish. Who cares what you killed in their name? What good does that do!?