A second contradiction in the Qur'an

[Link]

The part you are confused is about charity/spending in God's way, like Shakeel explained

 

[stevecanuck]

Not really. In Quran 2:219, there are two questions that God told Muhammad that his people will ask him. The first question they will ask him is about intoxicating drinks and gambling and the second question they will ask him is about how much or what to spend to the way of Allah and to which God said what you have spare to spend. In other words, God is saying you should spend on your needs first and if you still have some left (what is beyond your needs), then, spend it in the way of Allah and by this way, Allah makes clear His Signs to you so that you may reflect or consider. Here, clearly, Allah is NOT asking you to forsake all your needs just for His sake. The 2 questions in Quran 2:219 are not even related !! So, what contradiction are you talking about ??

Not according to Surah Al-Baqarah 2:217-220 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran

• This is the first injunction concerning intoxicating drinks and gambling, and here the matter has been left merely as an expression of disapproval. This was a preliminary step designed to prepare the minds of people for the acceptance of their prohibition. The injunction prohibiting the performance of Prayer when in a state of intoxication came later, and ultimately alcohol, gambling and the like were categorically prohibited see( 4:43)and (5:90).

If those verses prohibit drink and gambling after first allowing it, then that is what is known as a contradiction if it's not made clear that it is a change in position.

 

[stevecanuck]

The part you are confused is about charity/spending in God's way, like Shakeel explained

Please read my response following your post.

 

[Clara Tea]

In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".

I propose a toast to clarifying that.

 

[Shakeel]

In your opinion of course. I just share my view on things when asked. I don't know what your problem is. Something you need to work on I guess

Were you asked to interpret the Qur'an? I don't think so. You invited yourself to invent things about the Qur'an without any apparent care as to whether it's correct or not. Who appreciates such behaviour?

It is hypocritical to try to fit a scripture you don't know to your teachings by any means possible, and at the same time reject it.

 

[Shakeel]

If those verses prohibit drink and gambling after first allowing it, then that is what is known as a contradiction if it's not made clear that it is a change in position.

2:106 "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?"

 

[Link]

2:106 "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?"

The sign abrogated is the family of Moses and Aaron and their revelations, and forgotten is previous chosen Ahlulbayts and their revelations, and better then it or similar to it refers to the guidance of our time, which is Quran and Ahlulbayt.

This verse is often used to justify the wrong notion of one verse abrogating another, but there is no such thing in Quran. There are verses that cancel one situation with another, but there is no verse that is outright cancelled nor a verse "forgotten".

Fighting verses are situational, and as the situation changes, so do the orders, but none cancel one another. They show the spirit behind the commands and why Mohammad (s) was forced to fight, none of them are outright abrogated. Even the number of little versus a lot, if the situation arises again, it may revert to that.

 

[Link]

And the other verse used for abrogation, concept, "if we replaced one sign by another...." it means one revelation and messenger replaced by another, or one rope of God established replaced by another. It has the same meaning, it means, people of the book instead of believing in Mohammad (s) when he and his family and the Quran is the new proof and sign from God and guidance from God, accuse him and deny his miracles when they are as strong or even stronger then miracles in the past.

Abrogation has no proof in Quran.

 

[stvdv]

Were you asked to interpret the Qur'an? I don't think so

You think wrong

You invited yourself to invent things about the Qur'an without any apparent care as to whether it's correct or not. Who appreciates such behaviour?

Just BS. You act as if you are God, pretending to be clearvoyant and know how I feel and what I think. You are so full of it (arrogance). You better check with Allah about arrogance and the use of it for people on the spiritual path.

Just mind your own business. And answer the OP yourself, instead of personally attacking me (you know nothing about me, so don't pretend you do and don't write about me that way on RF).

It is hypocritical to try to fit a scripture you don't know to your teachings by any means possible, and at the same time reject it.

Again BS. My God, what is your problem? Smells like spiritual arrogance you suffer from, belittling me.

You better check with Muhammad, how well I know Muhammad, the answer might surprise you

 

[The_Fisher_King]

In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".

The drinking of alcoholic drinks was deeply ingrained in the society of the time. Allah therefore revealed the verses on the drinking of alcoholic drinks (and the consumption of intoxicants more widely) progressively, over time, in order to reform society in a step-wise fashion. 2:219 came before 5:90, to first nudge people away from the drinking of alcoholic drinks, before the banning of intoxicants outright later in 5:90.

 

[JerryMyers]

Not according to Surah Al-Baqarah 2:217-220 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran

• This is the first injunction concerning intoxicating drinks and gambling, and here the matter has been left merely as an expression of disapproval. This was a preliminary step designed to prepare the minds of people for the acceptance of their prohibition. The injunction prohibiting the performance of Prayer when in a state of intoxication came later, and ultimately alcohol, gambling and the like were categorically prohibited see( 4:43)and (5:90).

Well, you should not simply ‘cut and paste’ without understanding it. The commentary you ‘cut and paste’ above is explaining that Surah 2:219 is just God’s expression of disapproval towards intoxicating drinks and gambling, it’s NOT yet a Command from Him. The commentary also explained why this is so as it ‘was a preliminary step designed to prepare the minds of people for the acceptance of their prohibition’. Read again.

If those verses prohibit drink and gambling after first allowing it, then that is what is known as a contradiction if it's not made clear that it is a change in position.

It’s not a case of ‘allowing and later disallowing’ - if that’s the case, then, every known Holy Scriptures of any faith are in contradictions within their own holy pages. For instance, before God told Moses through the Ten Commandment that ‘you shall not commit adultery’, does that mean prior to that God approve adultery/free sex and when God commanded you shall not commit adultery, does that mean God just contradicted Himself ?? No, it’s not a contradiction - it’s just that God has not told you so and make it His Command or His Law that you shall not commit adultery. It’s the same with intoxicating drinks and gambling. Likewise, if you have not told your toddler that he should not steal, does that mean for your toddler, you approve and allow stealing ?? You probably did not tell him so because his young mind is not capable to understand you at that time, but when he’s old enough to understand and you finally told him stealing is a big ‘no-no’, does that mean you just contradicted yourself ??

Contradiction is NOT about what is NOT MADE CLEAR but, contradiction is when you passed WHAT IS A CLEAR COMMAND allowing something and later, you passed another WHAT IS A CLEAR COMMAND disallowing it. I don’t think you will find any CLEAR COMMAND from God in the Quran that allow intoxicating drinks and gambling.

 

[stevecanuck]

I propose a toast to clarifying that.

Avoid, Shun, and Eschew are also used in translating the Arabic word "ij'tanibūhu". No matter which is used, it's pretty clear that Allah does not want Muslims to partake thereof.

 

[stevecanuck]

The sign abrogated is the family of Moses and Aaron and their revelations, and forgotten is previous chosen Ahlulbayts and their revelations, and better then it or similar to it refers to the guidance of our time, which is Quran and Ahlulbayt.

This verse is often used to justify the wrong notion of one verse abrogating another, but there is no such thing in Quran. There are verses that cancel one situation with another, but there is no verse that is outright cancelled nor a verse "forgotten".

Fighting verses are situational, and as the situation changes, so do the orders, but none cancel one another. They show the spirit behind the commands and why Mohammad (s) was forced to fight, none of them are outright abrogated. Even the number of little versus a lot, if the situation arises again, it may revert to that.

That's pretty convenient. With that logic, there can be no error or contradiction. Again - how convenient.

 

[Glaurung]

I am not a Muslim so I have no dog in this fight but I stumbled on this thread and I cannot help but think your claim of a contradiction is rather weak OP. Note that I am working only on what is presented by the original post.

They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

I do not think it follows that the spending clause concerns money for wine and gambling. The verse seems to be addressing two distinct questions.

1. The permissibility of alcohol and gambling. (Forbidden).
   
2. How much to spend. (On what? Not specified).

You insist that 2. is to be read as permission to spend superfluous money on alcohol and gambling, but I see no reason to assume this given that the Qur'an categorically states both to be sinful. It seems that whatever the (what is beyond your needs) clause is meant to address it is not alcohol and gambling. It is its own distinct clause addressing a distinct but unspecified question.

 

[firedragon]

In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Oh there is definitely a confusion there.

Can you tell me, what is "fee mahallin nasbin mafaoolun bihee" in arabic grammar?

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".

I think you should ask answer my question above in order to understand further rather than making such claims.

 

[firedragon]

Obviously you're not familiar with the language of the qur'an. If Allah tells you to "set it aside",

Hmm. Since you seem to be familiar with the language of the Quran, can you explain which Balagha the word you have shown above is using?

 

[Augustus]

Verse 2:219 says that gambling and drink are allowed if all other obligations are met. The contradiction is obvious.

I think you have misread the verse to create an imaginary contradiction. Your mistake is clearer in this translation:

They ask you (O Prophet) concerning drinking and gambling: Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; But the sin is greater than the profit." (And) they ask how much they are to spend (in charity), Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus Allah makes clear to you His Signs: In order that you may think—

2 separate question on different topics

Please tell me based on those two verses whether Islam forbids gambling and alcohol or not. Thank you.

Muslims themselves were debating this for 2 centuries before orthodoxy became established.

And their mastery of syllogistic reasoning was capable of accommodating human frailties with equal ease, as early Hanafite arguments about alcohol show. Noting that the Qur’an disapproved specifically of ‘wine’ (khamr), jurists proposed that God clearly had no objection to fermented date juice (nabidh). Because the holy book warned Muslims against being too drunk to understand their prayers, they reasoned further that the evil of alcohol arose out of the senselessness produced by overindulgence. Intoxication could therefore be defined, they said, as an inability to differentiate between a man and woman.19 The route was baffling, but the destination was easily defined. If Hanafites were to be believed, Muslims could down alcohol by the jug until they became incapable of telling a slave girl from a beardless boy.
Sadakat Kadri - Heaven on Earth: A Journey Through Sharia law

 

[stevecanuck]

2:106 "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?"

Real translation: - We do not abrogate a verse unless we do.

That verse alone is another contradiction.

 

[stevecanuck]

The drinking of alcoholic drinks was deeply ingrained in the society of the time. Allah therefore revealed the verses on the drinking of alcoholic drinks (and the consumption of intoxicants more widely) progressively, over time, in order to reform society in a step-wise fashion. 2:219 came before 5:90, to first nudge people away from the drinking of alcoholic drinks, before the banning of intoxicants outright later in 5:90.

In other words, first you can drink, and then you can't. If not contradiction, then certainly abrogation. And if abrogation then it's without preamble. It should say it's an abrogation so as not to create confusion, but it doesn't. Either way, it's incompetence.

 

[stevecanuck]

Well, you should not simply ‘cut and paste’ without understanding it. The commentary you ‘cut and paste’ above is explaining that Surah 2:219 is just God’s expression of disapproval towards intoxicating drinks and gambling, it’s NOT yet a Command from Him. The commentary also explained why this is so as it ‘was a preliminary step designed to prepare the minds of people for the acceptance of their prohibition’. Read again.

Saying "cut and paste" a couple of times is an obvious attempt to minimize and trivialize the opinion of a Muslim exegete. Nice try. I'm showing my source. If I hadn't, you probably would have told me to provide a link.

Also, my post was in response to one that claimed "spending" was a reference to spending for charity rather than for drink. I showed the above exegete disagreed.

It’s not a case of ‘allowing and later disallowing’ - if that’s the case, then, every known Holy Scriptures of any faith are in contradictions within their own holy pages. For instance, before God told Moses through the Ten Commandment that ‘you shall not commit adultery’, does that mean prior to that God approve adultery/free sex and when God commanded you shall not commit adultery, does that mean God just contradicted Himself ?? No, it’s not a contradiction - it’s just that God has not told you so and make it His Command or His Law that you shall not commit adultery. It’s the same with intoxicating drinks and gambling. Likewise, if you have not told your toddler that he should not steal, does that mean for your toddler, you approve and allow stealing ?? You probably did not tell him so because his young mind is not capable to understand you at that time, but when he’s old enough to understand and you finally told him stealing is a big ‘no-no’, does that mean you just contradicted yourself ??

Contradiction is NOT about what is NOT MADE CLEAR but, contradiction is when you passed WHAT IS A CLEAR COMMAND allowing something and later, you passed another WHAT IS A CLEAR COMMAND disallowing it. I don’t think you will find any CLEAR COMMAND from God in the Quran that allow intoxicating drinks and gambling.

I did. Read the OP.