A second contradiction in the Qur'an

[stevecanuck]

I am not a Muslim so I have no dog in this fight but I stumbled on this thread and I cannot help but think your claim of a contradiction is rather weak OP. Note that I am working only on what is presented by the original post.



I do not think it follows that the spending clause concerns money for wine and gambling. The verse seems to be addressing two distinct questions.

1. The permissibility of alcohol and gambling. (Forbidden).
   
2. How much to spend. (On what? Not specified).

You insist that 2. is to be read as permission to spend superfluous money on alcohol and gambling, but I see no reason to assume this given that the Qur'an categorically states both to be sinful. It seems that whatever the (what is beyond your needs) clause is meant to address it is not alcohol and gambling. It is its own distinct clause addressing a distinct but unspecified question.

I don't see what's not to understand. The first verse says that only excess funds can be used for gambling and drink, and the second says they are forbidden altogether.

 

[stevecanuck]

Oh there is definitely a confusion there.

Can you tell me, what is "fee mahallin nasbin mafaoolun bihee" in arabic grammar?



I think you should ask answer my question above in order to understand further rather than making such claims.

I don't answer rhetorical questions. If you have a point, just make it.

 

[firedragon]

I don't answer rhetorical questions. I you have a point, just make it.

If you dont know that, how can you make claims about Arabic sentences?

 

[firedragon]

In other words, first you can drink, and then you can't.

Which verse says "You can drink"?

 

[stevecanuck]

I do not think it follows that the spending clause concerns money for wine and gambling. The verse seems to be addressing two distinct questions.

1. The permissibility of alcohol and gambling. (Forbidden).
   
2. How much to spend. (On what? Not specified).

You insist that 2. is to be read as permission to spend superfluous money on alcohol and gambling, but I see no reason to assume this given that the Qur'an categorically states both to be sinful. It seems that whatever the (what is beyond your needs) clause is meant to address it is not alcohol and gambling. It is its own distinct clause addressing a distinct but unspecified question.

I provided an explanation of that from a Muslim exegete in an earlier post. Besides, no secondary subject was introduced, so what else could the spending be referring to?

 

[stevecanuck]

Which verse says "You can drink"?

Read the OP.

 

[firedragon]

Read the OP.

I did. None of them say "You can drink". So, you just made that up.

 

[firedragon]

Read the OP.

Anyway, since you seem to be familiar with the language of the Quran, telling others that "they are not familiar with the language of the Quran", can you explain which Balagha the word you have shown in your OP is using?

If you dont know say that you dont know. Its alright not to know. But dont mock others saying "You dont know" when you yourself have no clue.

If you do, please say. Its very simple you see. What Balagha is used? If you understand this, you might understand something about the verses you cut and pasted.

 

[stevecanuck]

If you dont know that, how can you make claims about Arabic sentences?

Please make your point or move on. I couldn't find that phrase in either verse that I quoted. I'm no where near fluent in Arabic, so I need the English beside it so I can plow my way through it.

 

[stevecanuck]

Anyway, since you seem to be familiar with the language of the Quran, telling others that "they are not familiar with the language of the Quran", can you explain which Balagha the word you have shown in your OP is using?

If you dont know say that you dont know. Its alright not to know. But dont mock others saying "You dont know" when you yourself have no clue.

If you do, please say. Its very simple you see. What Balagha is used? If you understand this, you might understand something about the verses you cut and pasted.

"Reach"? What do you mean by that?

 

[firedragon]

In verse 5:90, Allah clearly tells Muslims not to drink alcohol - "O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed".

There's no room for confusion there. Unless you consider the following:

Previously, in 2:219, Allah said, "They ask thee [Mohamed] concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.' They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: 'What is beyond your needs.'"

So, wait a minute, can you or can't you? It seems you can as long as all other obligations have been satisfied. The irony here is that Allah concludes 2:219 with this, "Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider".

It would seem that Allah and I have differing opinions as to the meaning of "make clear".

Can you tell me the difference between Hamar and Hamar? (7th letter Ha and the deep Ha) since you have an expertise in the Quranic language? Maybe some light on the verse could be shed.

 

[firedragon]

Please make your point or move on. I couldn't find that phrase in either verse that I quoted. I'm no where near fluent in Arabic, so I need the English beside it so I can plow my way through it.

If you dont know arabic, why do you tell others "you dont know the Quranic language"? Is not that a shame mate?

Anyway, since you dont know arabic, understand something. In an arabic word there is a thing called a Dhamiyr as shaan. That makes the word mean its addressed to a third party person, not an action.

Lets see if you have the humility to understand further then you can engage.

 

[firedragon]

"Reach"? What do you mean by that?

Reach? what is "reach"?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

In other words, first you can drink, and then you can't. If not contradiction, then certainly abrogation. And if abrogation then it's without preamble. It should say it's an abrogation so as not to create confusion, but it doesn't. Either way, it's incompetence.

Rather, first it would be better not to drink, and then you outright shouldn't. It proceeds thus in a step-wise fashion, to reform the society gradually. No contradiction here.

 

[Glaurung]

I don't see what's not to understand. The first verse says that only excess funds can be used for gambling and drink, and the second says they are forbidden altogether.

It does not say that at all. It says that the sins of gambling and drinking exceed whatever profit is gained. Then that same verse goes on to say that you should spend only what you can spare. These are two distinct, unconnected statements. The translation you quote is unclear in that you have two distinct ideas given in a single verse without any conjunction between them but perhaps it's less unclear in Arabic. (I don't know). In any case, the translation quoted by Augustus is unambiguous and I see no reason why it should be rejected.

I provided an explanation of that from a Muslim exegete in an earlier post. Besides, no secondary subject was introduced, so what else could the spending be referring to?

In your translation there's no mention of charity, although that would be the common sense inference knowing that Islam commands alms giving. Nonetheless it says that you should spend only what is beyond your needs. That this spending refers to alcohol and gambling is an inference you are drawing without adequate justification. It's not that I don't understand how you came to that reading, it's that I think your reading is a fallacious one. Treat each statement as stand alone and the contradiction vanishes.

 

[firedragon]

Obviously you're not familiar with the language of the qur'an. If Allah tells you to "set it aside", that means do NOT do it. And being "successful" is one the many ways Allah refers to going to Heaven. Translation - "If you want to go avoid burning for eternity, then don't drink or gamble".

If you have no clue of the language, dont make statements like this. How in the world can you tell someone "Obviously you're not familiar with the language of the qur'an"? It is like a fish telling the cat "you dont know English".

Can you tell me the difference between IJthanboohu, ijthanboo and Janeeban?

All three of them means "set aside". But what is the difference?

 

[stevecanuck]

It does not say that at all. It says that the sins of gambling and drinking exceed whatever profit is gained. Then that same verse goes on to say that you should spend only what you can spare. These are two distinct, unconnected statements. The translation you quote is unclear in that you have two distinct ideas given in a single verse without any conjunction between them but perhaps it's less unclear in Arabic. (I don't know). In any case, the translation quoted by Augustus is unambiguous and I see no reason why it should be rejected.


In your translation there's no mention of charity, although that would be the common sense inference knowing that Islam commands alms giving. Nonetheless it says that you should spend only what is beyond your needs. That this spending refers to alcohol and gambling is an inference you are drawing without adequate justification. It's not that I don't understand how you came to that reading, it's that I think your reading is a fallacious one. Treat each statement as stand alone and the contradiction vanishes.

Please read post #22.

I have to go out now. I'll be gone for a few hours, and tomorrow is busy as well, but I'll wade through all this in the next day or two.

 

[JerryMyers]

Also, my post was in response to one that claimed "spending" was a reference to spending for charity rather than for drink. I showed the above exegete disagreed.

You really have shown NOTHING.

Logic and common sense should tell you the ‘spending’ cannot be related to intoxicating drinks and gambling. How could it be when God just said ‘In them is great SIN’ !! Clearly, the question ‘how much they are to spend’ is in reference to ‘spending to the Way of Allah’ and spending for charity is in line with the Way of Allah.

The ‘Way of Allah’ is the theme in Surah 2:217-218, and this theme is carried over to Surah 2:219 in the form of a question - how or what to spend to the Way of Allah.

By the way, what makes you think the ‘spending’ is for drinks ?? Your undying determination to find ‘contradictions’ in the Quran ?? I think the Jews have similar undying determination too in their attempts to find ‘faults’ in Jesus. The similarity is uncanny.

I did. Read the OP.

If you really have read (not just skim through) that commentary (your source of information) on Surah 2:219, then, clearly, you STILL FAILED to understand it. Read again.

 

[stevecanuck]

If you dont know arabic, why do you tell others "you dont know the Quranic language"? Is not that a shame mate?

Anyway, since you dont know arabic, understand something. In an arabic word there is a thing called a Dhamiyr as shaan. That makes the word mean its addressed to a third party person, not an action.

Lets see if you have the humility to understand further then you can engage.

You know that by "language" I mean "manner of speaking", but it's fun to pretend that I meant "Arabic". If I had meant "Arabic", I would have simply said so.

 

[Link]

@stevecanuck , let it go. By the way, when I left Islam, I believed I found 28 rational problems with Quran, some of them contradictions.

You can try, and we can help you figure it all out. Let this one go, and try another one. There are no contradictions in Quran as far as I'm aware of.