A serious question for the religious types about gay and trans people

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see that as kind of rude. I'm always worried I will offend them.

Asking things like "what pronouns should I use for you?" wouldn't come off as rude if it's sincere. Asking about the state of their genitals or sexual history would probably come off as impolite as if someone asked you about these things.

 

[Perditus]

Asking about the state of their genitals or sexual history would probably come off as impolite as if someone asked you about these things.

Good God. Never.

 

[randomvim]

Why do you care? If I decide to get freaky withy another guy, (I'd pick @columbus so I could be the dude, btw) what possible affect does it have on your life, or your relationship with God? If I decide to get 10 inches of pecker chopped off (ladies, how you doin'?) and wear dresses, how does it impact you?

I am sure the concept of how incorrect same sex activities could be has been discussed or covered in some length. Let's start with easiest.

There is a condition idetified as mental disorder. I don't recall it's tittle but the condition leaves people wanting to cut off their limbs or become cripple. the desire to harms one self has always been a disease.

Sadly, too many have succumb to wanting to be what they are not with serious lack of respect for themselves. we normally seek to help these individuals.

but this backwards world goes opposite direction just because a decision to mutilate the body might be correlated with how they like or feel for sex. in all other situations these people would need to see a doctor but hey. it's in their bedroom who cares?

yes who cares? what a delightful to be sought after and thought of as a bigot because you care about another person's well being.

speaking of which, sexuality is a choice. even though we have a desire to procreate - that desire is from nature's desire to live and continue a population. to have kids. since we can come to the conclusion that certain sexual acts are not generated from the goal of having a family - these acts are decision based. they are a choice. with choices comes the question - what is right or wrong.

we don't want what is wrong for our kids, siblings, family, friends, etc. so those of us who care seek to know what is right or wrong and inform society to maintain a positive environment for our loved ones.

for example. ever try telling a kid don't give up when everyone else is saying it's okay to walk away? that kid could be inches away from their goal but popular vote is, you can't do it. shoot that kid might think there be no chance. motivation is hard. kinda like that in this situation.

 

[Perditus]

I'm old, I'm tired, and if there is one thing I've learned about people over the years it's that you can't control other people nor should you try to.

For the most part, we cannot judge other people using our own personal values. They are personal values for a reason. Everyone is individual and unique based on their genetics, their environment, and their personal experiences.

Stop trying to control other people. It can't be done.

 

[columbus]

I see that as kind of rude. I'm always worried I will offend them.

Usually, if it matters you can figure it out(at least in real life, in my experience) or they'll tell you.
Nobody gets to know me without finding out about my partner Doug. If someone is confused about the relationship I would rather explain what is any of their business.
Tom

 

[randomvim]

I'm old, I'm tired, and if there is one thing I've learned about people over the years it's that you can't control other people nor should you try to.

For the most part, we cannot judge other people using our own personal values. They are personal values for a reason. Everyone is individual and unique based on their genetics, their environment, and their personal experiences.

Stop trying to control other people. It can't be done.

Whoses trying to control who?

 

[columbus]

I am sure the concept of how incorrect same sex activities could be, let's start with easiest.

There is nothing in your post giving me a reason to think my 20+ years marriage to Doug is in any way incorrect.

People expecting me to accept their opinions about the writings of some primitive bronze-age people are not in the least convincing.
Actually, I find it solid evidence that they didn't know any more ethics or God than they did about atomic physics.
Tom

 

[jeager106]

I'm old, I'm tired, and if there is one thing I've learned about people over the years it's that you can't control other people nor should you try to.

For the most part, we cannot judge other people using our own personal values. They are personal values for a reason. Everyone is individual and unique based on their genetics, their environment, and their personal experiences.

Stop trying to control other people. It can't be done.

Yes! Me too also. Old and tired.
The only thing I can fix is my tom cat.
I can "control" my car and my firearms.
Anything else is a folly.
I have a degree in engineering and human resources.
Engineering comes in handy.
Human resources is laughable.
I served 22.5 years as a police officer in the mean streets.
The only way to "control" miscreants was to lock them behind bars.
We called ourselves ZOO KEEPERS.
When the animals misbehaved we locked them up in cages.
Sadly they got out of cages after some time and became animals again.
13 serious injuries, back broken 4 X, + 3 concussions, poisoned in chemical fires, pinned down for hours
by sniper fire, (there's a pucker factor of 10) and so much more.
Even had a BABY thrown at me.
I earned my p.t.s.d., depression, and alcoholism.
I don't drink at all any longer. Sadly I'm back in therapy for the p.t.s.d. and depression.
For reasons unknown the horrors revisit me in my dreams.
Police work? Can you imagine being trained on HOW to TAKE a knife cut and keep
fighting?
I made up my mind I ain't takin' NO knife cut.
I'd shoot the mutha!
I've seen dead people all carve up.
No, not me thank you very much.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:

Sorry, that's not homosexuality, that's referring to promiscuity between any two or more people.

 

[Perditus]

Whoses trying to control who?

I'm not telling anyone what to do, so you can't accuse me of controlling anyone.

 

[shava]

Please read where I am coming from before posting. I will do this in question format so the post would be easier to read and answered.

There is no such thing as being gay. People are gay because they have an sexual orientation to those of their same-gender. It has nothing to do with actions.

1. Where in scripture does it say otherwise?

2. Since people are gay, how can you become something you already are?

3. Where in the dictionary does it even say "being gay" is the correct English phrase; and, where in the Bible and dictionary is the definition of being gay?

​

The Bible talks about homosexual actions. It does not differentiate between someone who is gay and someone who is straight. The actions are impure biblical just as every other sexual immoral act. It has nothing to do with the person but his or her actions whether he is gay, straight, or not.

​

Impure acts included:






4. Where in the Bible does this specifically apply to people who have an sexual orientation of those of the same gender?

5. Where does it say one needs to be homosexual (a person who has a sexual attraction orientation of those of his same-gender) to commit these actions?

6. How does homosexual acts relate to someone who is homosexual? (Think about it)



7. So you mean to tell me that homosexual actions (according to scripture not real life) are the only sins that god doesn't forgive? I could have sworn he forgives all sins but those who turned their back on him?

Saying jesus can't save a person for a particular sin/action against god, is calling jesus and his father a liar.


Edit

Also, did you ever read any of the scriptures I posted?

Can you rebut scripture?

All people can be forgiven of their sins through obedience of the Gospel. I never said a particular sin/action could not be forgiven. The bible is clear, if you have a sexual relation with someone of the same sex, it's a sin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All people can be forgiven of their sins through obedience of the Gospel. I never said a particular sin/action could not be forgiven. The bible is clear, if yo have a sexual relation with someone of the same sex, it's a sin.

Thank you for the clarification. I honestly would like you to clarify the questions I asked, though. Do you understand where I am coming from? If so, at which points?

 

[shava]

There's a few things here:
1. Not every Ba'al is the same. There's Ba'al Hadad, Ba'al Zebub, Ba'al Zaphon and I'm sure others I can't think of off hand.

2. You've established that prostitution was practiced as part of Asherah worship, not Molech worship.

3. Reinterpreting "weaving" as intimacy is baseless. They could have been prostituting themselves and hanging up nice things for their idols. You'd have to bring a verse to establish that "weaving" is clearly a metaphor for intimacy or that the metaphor "weaving the fabric of creation" exists in Tanach.

4. The word "ṢoVOTH" is not related to the word "performing". Its derived from "ṢVA" meaning a host (like an army host, ie. a lot of them dedicated to a single cause). I'm not sure there even is a word for "performing" in Biblical Hebrew.

5. Kadeshah =/= Zonah. Leviticus 20 uses a form of the root word "ZNH". This form of the word is also found in Num. 15:39 in a non-idolatry specific instance. Neither Lev. 18, not Lev. 20 contains any word derived from the root KDSH.

6. If the point of these two chapters in Leviticus was to enunciate forbidden relations in idol worship, then it skipped out on a few: the one between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman, a married man and his wife, a married man an unmarried woman, a man and his niece and two women, are five that come to mind. Unless you intend to argue that some relations in idol worship are permitted, which I don't think has any basis.

7. If the passage didn't intend to enunciate a list of forbidden relations in general, than it wouldn't have had to itemize it. A simple, "do not have relations for idol worship" or some permutation of that would have sufficed. There also would be no need for such a list, because idol-worship is already prohibited in general.

8. If these were all forms of Molech worship, we'd expect Molech to be mentioned at the start of chapter 18, not 2/3rds of the way in. Although it is mentioned at the start of chapter 20, there's a clear progression of the discussion from Molech, to other forms of prohibited rituals practiced by the nations, to other forms of prohibited [sexual] activities practiced by the nation.

9. Even if you could disprove all the above, there is still another issue. Some of the prohibitions are repeated in non-idolatry related contexts. The one against adultery found in Lev. 18:20 and Lev. 20:10, is repeated in a non-idolatry context in Deut. 22:22. The one against relations with a menstruating woman is found in Lev. 15:24. This establishes that even if all these various types of intimacy are prohibited because they were found in idol worship, the actual prohibition extends even outside of idol worship.

I also want to point out that you seem to be attaching the word holy to the word kadeshah. The root word QDSH doesn't have anything to do with prostitution of any type or holiness. Its technical meaning is "something that is separated for a purpose." Its synonymous with the root BDL meaning "separate" without any indication of a purpose. Its because of this meaning that the root QDSH can be used for prostitution or holiness. In the former, the prostitute was separated from society (or at least the women's weekly get-together) to practice her career. In the latter, an object or entity is separated from the mundane for use in service to G-d (or with respect to G-d, separate from everything inherently). It could be that the word could also refer to temple prostitutes in the respect of their being separate as well. But what the word doesn't do, is indicate any type of sanctity to their action.

A similar example of this is with another synonym Zonah. The word Zonah is derived from the word ZON, meaning to sustain. This word when used in reference to a prostitute indicates that she chose her profession because she needed to sustain herself, and not because she necessarily wanted to. Other instances of this root is found in agriculture (ZaN - a strain or species) and war (ZaYiN - a weapon) and food (MaZoN - sustenance).

In Biblical Hebrew, you need to look at the root and derive the meaning from there to the specific instance. It looks like what you're doing is taking a survey of the expressions of a word and applying them interchangeably.

I'd appreciate it, if after citing a verse or source, you'd add what you intend me to understand from it, so that we're both on the same page.

Just pick up your bible, such as the KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASV, NEB, NLT, NIV and stop worrying about all the technical strains, as those that translated the bibles into English took all of that when they translated it. You in my opinion are causing yourself such an unnecessary burden when the bible doesn't require one to do that.

 

[shava]

Thank you for the clarification. I honestly would like you to clarify the questions I asked, though. Do you understand where I am coming from? If so, at which points?

It's a sin to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex. Romans chapter 1. I suggest reading all of Romans chapter1.

 

[columbus]

The bible is clear, if you have a sexual relation with someone of the same sex, it's a sin.

This is proof that the Bible is wrong. It is the stories and beliefs and ethics of some primitive people. A beautiful antique, but it isn't a viable guide to living.
That's why nobody can come up with a good reason to oppose gay marriage.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's a sin to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex. Romans chapter 1. I suggest reading all of Romans chapter1.

Yes, how does this have to do with gay people?

 

[Wirey]

All people can be forgiven of their sins through obedience of the Gospel. I never said a particular sin/action could not be forgiven. The bible is clear, if you have a sexual relation with someone of the same sex, it's a sin.

Exodus 21:

And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.

Completely clear. Gay = bad, selling daughter for sex = good. Gotcha.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is proof that the Bible is wrong. It is the stories and beliefs and ethics of some primitive people. A beautiful antique, but it isn't a viable guide to living.
That's why nobody can come up with a good reason to oppose gay marriage.

It's actually not wrong. Think of it from the believers' and biblical perspective. If we judged what is right and wrong on our criteria rather than the criteria of those making the claim, how is that logical?

For example, I agree homosexual actions (however named) is not wrong. However, the criteria edit to back up my statement is based on ethics, morals, and experience. Right and wrong are morals rather than facts.

So, in that light, whatever the believers' say is right only if we went off of their criteria not our own. Unless we find a loop hole in their criteria (which I have found many of times), then that's when we can debate whose right and wrong with a common foundation for argument.

 

[columbus]

It's actually not wrong. Think of it from the believers' and biblical perspective. If we judged what is right and wrong on our criteria rather than the criteria of those making the claim, how is that logical?

Yes it is wrong. Not about everything, but lots and lots of stuff.
Not because the original authors and audience were stupid or evil. They were just primitive.
Modern people know so much more than they did. So when Scriptures contradict modern ideas, from speciation to marriage, just claiming to believe that God says something else doesn't change the facts. You're wrong to believe that the earth is a few thousand years old. You're wrong to believe that my marriage is immoral because we are gay.
Claiming to speak for God isn't at all credible.
Tom

 

[Tumah]

Just pick up your bible, such as the KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASV, NEB, NLT, NIV and stop worrying about all the technical strains, as those that translated the bibles into English took all of that when they translated it. You in my opinion are causing yourself such an unnecessary burden when the bible doesn't require one to do that.

I don't use English bibles. I use the Hebrew Tanach. And you in my opinion are remaining an ignoramus with your insistence that you are right while lacking anything in the way of Scriptural proof (or reading comprehension skills...) to back you up.

But I like your world view: "Stop worrying about all the technical strains. Someone else did all the thinking for you, so you can just sit back and relax."
Spoken like a true Christian.