A social experiment with fundamentalist Christians

[MoonWater]

Your defensiveness is showing. I am simply reporting what I've observed and it's obvious it's struck a nerve with you. I understand that moderate Christians are embarrassed by these sorts of people, but the problem is it pretty much ends there.

Why aren't moderate Christians actively opposing the craziness that comes from their far-right cousins? I guarantee you if a Stalin or Mao type group of atheists were as numerous as fundamentalist Christians, I would be actively opposing them.


Um.....no.


Ah, see...now you're assuming I'm lumping all Christians in with the fundies. That's an error on your part.


See what I mean? I never once said fundies were representative of average or mainstream Christianity, yet here you are acting as if I had.


But it's not just visiting. If you feel such idiocy as young-earth creationism isn't representative of Christianity and is making it look bad, why aren't you actively opposing it? Where are the campaigns from conservative Christian groups saying "This doesn't represent our faith"?

Instead, the museum funnels millions through each year and makes millions of dollars in the process. And now they're planning a Noah's Ark theme park with government support! That doesn't seem like such a fringe minority to me. All you have to do is pay attention.

There may not be many groups or organized protests that advertise themselves as strictly "moderate Christians against fundamentalism/extremism", but that doesn't mean moderate christians aren't standing up against it as I imagine they make up a good chunk of the population of groups and protests that DO oppose it. They may not be forming groups exclusively for Christians but that doesn't mean they aren't forming protests or aren't joining up with others. I think to assume that there aren't many moderate christians speaking out against this sort of thing just because there aren't really many groups out there that are strictly "christians against fundamentalism" is remarkably short sited.

and btw, a quick google search turned these up:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12935.htm
Concerned Christians Against Fundamentalism | Facebook

 

[Jose Fly]

When confronted with disagreement, did you get the impression that they were cognizant of their inability to support their position and argue it critically, and that they responded the way they did due to this? Or do you feel that they were not even aware of their inability to support their positions?

That's a good question and one that I mulled over regularly. In the end, I came away thinking that it was simply a matter of sticking to comfortable untruths over uncomfortable truths. I got an overwhelming sense of a strong need on their part to feel secure in their beliefs, be they spiritual, political, or social. Any hint that any of those beliefs even might be wrong is unacceptable.

They seemed to exhibit a very well-developed ability to simply ignore aspects of reality that didn't fit their beliefs. So to answer your question, I don't think they were aware.

What other kinds of responses did they give when they were confronted with disagreement? Some examples?

One that continues to stand out in my mind is when a couple of them started in on a U.N. conspiracy theory, where the U.N. would take over N. America and move the population into "settlement zones" and leave the rest for biodiversity. They even had a map showing what was planned. At first glance, the map actually seemed like a genuine U.N. product; it even had "U.N. Wildlands Project" on it. You can see the map and associated conspiracy theories AT THIS WEBSITE.

But the map also had some citations for the alleged depiction. So I went and looked them up and read through the original documents. Of course, they said absolutely nothing about taking over N. America, relocating people, or anything even remotely like what the map depicted. It also was clear the map wasn't a UN map, but one made by conspiracy theorists.

When I brought this information back to the thread and simply asked "Where exactly in these documents are the plans to implement what's depicted on the map", I got a rather odd and surprising answer. I was told that no, the documents don't overtly state the plans, but one needs to "operate in the prophetic" to discern their true meaning and intent.

Now, I've grown up around fundamentalist Christians, but that was a new term to me. When I asked what that meant, after the expected chastisement for not knowing it, it was explained that "true Christians" can sort of read between the lines of documents like those of the UN and see Satan's actual plans hidden within. I was told this was a type of spiritual gift and something I needed to work on.

IMO, it was nothing more than taking one's own paranoid delusions and imposing them on benign documents and statements. But either way, it was rather surprising and interesting.

 

[Jose Fly]

There may not be many groups or organized protests that advertise themselves as strictly "moderate Christians against fundamentalism/extremism", but that doesn't mean moderate christians aren't standing up against it as I imagine they make up a good chunk of the population of groups and protests that DO oppose it.

What groups? And where are these protests against fundamentalist Christianity?

They may not be forming groups exclusively for Christians but that doesn't mean they aren't forming protests or aren't joining up with others. I think to assume that there aren't many moderate christians speaking out against this sort of thing just because there aren't really many groups out there that are strictly "christians against fundamentalism" is remarkably short sited.

When I see a consistent, concerted effort by mainstream Christians to marginalize fundamentalists, I'll take note and change my opinion. In the absence of anything of the sort, there's only one conclusion to reach.

and btw, a quick google search turned these up:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12935.htm
Concerned Christians Against Fundamentalism | Facebook

A facebook page that hasn't been active in almost 2 years and has 274 members is hardly anything to hold up as an example.

 

[Debunker]

I haven't been to Religious Forums since last September, mostly because I got a little bored because I agreed with so many people here. When a forum becomes essentially a "mutual back-slapping club", I tend to lose interest and go looking for something else.

This time around, I decided to do something a little different. I searched around the internet for a fundamentalist Christian discussion group that tightly controlled their membership. After a bit, I found one and applied for membership posing as a college age female who was also a born-again Christian. After I was accepted, I started off posting in a pretty innocuous manner, portraying myself as a bubbly, positive Christian. There were lot's of "Praise God" and "Amen" type things in my posts. Once the group got used to me and accepted me as one of their own, I started questioning some of the things they were posting. Not, "questioning" as in disagreeing, but as in simply asking things like "Is that really true" or "Can you show me where it actually says that".

And boy, did the poo hit the fan! I've never seen such a quick and unified turnaround in a group of people.

Let's be clear here...the sorts of things they posted were some of the most vile, mean-spirited, disgusting views I'd ever seen. Everything...and I mean everything...was a conspiracy. There were threads about rounding up all Muslims in the US and deporting them, jailing them, or even killing them; there were threads arguing that gays would go out at night and kidnap babies and eat them; there were threads about how the civil rights act was fascist; and there were so many threads about Obama and how he was a terrorist, Muslim, atheist, Nazi, communist, gay, CIA/Al Queda operative...it's hard to describe. There was even a lengthy discussion of geocentrism (with people actually advocating it).

What I discovered is that as loony and strange as fundamentalist Christians seem on open boards like this one, when they discuss things amongst themselves where they feel safe and like no one is listening, that's when the true crazy hate comes out. Also, they do not tolerate even the slightest bit of doubt or questioning from within. All one has to do is ask something like, "Really? Can you show me where that language is in the proposed bill" and you are immediately set upon by the group. I even had multiple threats of physical violence posted to me.

I also came away with a confirmation of some opinions I'd had of fundamentalists before the experiment, mostly that they are extremely paranoid, intentionally ignorant, and genuinely unhappy and angry in a very deep and serious way. And the fact that they've become more politically influential in recent years is something we as a country need to take very seriously. These are some very, very disturbed, messed up people.

EDIT: As I mentioned above, I was posting as a young female. It wasn't too long before I was struck by how differently I was treated. Being a male and always having posted as myself, I wasn't really prepared for what I experienced. In general, the men were very condescending and didn't take me seriously and the women really wanted to....what I call "bicker". The men regularly referred to me with terms like, "little girl", "sweetie", and even a few sexually offensive terms, and the women were even worse! Being the father of two young girls, I was really bothered by this treatment. At the very least, I came away from this experience determined to make sure my daughters don't ever allow anyone to treat them like that simply because of their sex.

I would like to suggest that what you experienced was not religious fundamentalism but a group psychoses which is present in other groups besides religious organizations. The attitude you describe and reject is not due to indoctrination per se but it is more of a psychological disorder bred into a specific subculture. Your following state does explain this social psychoses.

I also came away with a confirmation of some opinions I'd had of fundamentalists before the experiment, mostly that they are extremely paranoid, intentionally ignorant, and genuinely unhappy and angry in a very deep and serious way. And the fact that they've become more politically influential in recent years is something we as a country need to take very seriously. These are some very, very disturbed, messed up people.

There are millions of Christian fundamentalist that have none of the qualities you mention above. Many political and philosophical liberals, atheist, agnostics, conservatives, Muslims, etc. all share these same characteristics. Many times in debate on this forum, at great pearl to myself, I refer to my opponent as speaking from an oppositional defiant disorder described in the DSM which is used the medical profession to identify mental disorders.

The fact is, no single group is exempt from the influence from such psychotic reactions. To use this illness as an argument against religious fundamentalism is a very unintellectual approach. On the other hand, people suffering from this mental group problem need to have the facts explained to them in a way that they can be enlightened. I try this approach when arguing politic but I am not real good at it but I am improving as I do reject extremism on both the right and left. In religion, I also reject extremism.

 

[Debunker]

A lack of both empathy and critical thinking skills likely leads to that sort of mindset, regardless of which particular ideology it is. It could be Christians, Muslims, followers of Kim Jong-il, or whatever. Those types of people are drawn to those types of ideologies, and those types of ideologies don't exactly nourish critical thinking and empathy that would allow a person to break free from such a thing.

The sexism is an interesting note.

Actually, some of the greatest minds on RF have some of the craziest ideas when talking about politics and religion. It proves there are few trained minds that are immune to crazy ideas. If you need alist of very skilled thinkers who had crazy ideas, a list can be provided but it will will take several bits on your CP.

 

[Kathryn]

Your defensiveness is showing. I am simply reporting what I've observed and it's obvious it's struck a nerve with you. I understand that moderate Christians are embarrassed by these sorts of people, but the problem is it pretty much ends there.

Wrong call. This is a debate thread. I'm debating you. Simple as that - don't read too much into it.

Why aren't moderate Christians actively opposing the craziness that comes from their far-right cousins? I guarantee you if a Stalin or Mao type group of atheists were as numerous as fundamentalist Christians, I would be actively opposing them.

What do you mean by "actively opposing them?"

I am Methodist, formerly Catholic. Both large groups of Christians have a large number of fairly liberal constituents. Not sure if you're very familiar with "that sort" of Christian, but there are lots and lots of us.

One of the joys of being an American Christian is that we get to mix FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF RELIGION into our daily lives and faith. That means we also respect the rights of others to practice their faith openly. That doesn't mean we agree with them. But I'm not really sure how you expect us to "oppose" them. We can't and shouldn't stop them from practicing their faith, writing books, calling in to talk shows, starting wacky websites and amusement parks, etc. It's their right.

Ah, see...now you're assuming I'm lumping all Christians in with the fundies. That's an error on your part.

See what I mean? I never once said fundies were representative of average or mainstream Christianity, yet here you are acting as if I had.

Not sure where you got this. You mentioned three far right and weird organizations and I simply said they were not representative of US Christianity in general. Go back and reread what I said, in context if you don't agree. And my discussion was concerning the differences between CONSERVATIVE Christians and wacky fundamentalists - since there are marked differences between many of them.

But it's not just visiting. If you feel such idiocy as young-earth creationism isn't representative of Christianity and is making it look bad, why aren't you actively opposing it? Where are the campaigns from conservative Christian groups saying "This doesn't represent our faith"?

Campaign? Why would we need a campaign? We have churches full of moderate, liberal, and even some conservative Christians who don't believe in some of things wacky fundamentalists believe. We are members of religious forums and other internet groups and we speak out against those things. We have leaders and pastors and authors who disagree with and teach against those beliefs. I don't know what else you're expecting. As I said, they do have freedom of religion and freedom of speech on their side.

Instead, the museum funnels millions through each year and makes millions of dollars in the process. And now they're planning a Noah's Ark theme park with government support! That doesn't seem like such a fringe minority to me. All you have to do is pay attention.

That stupid theme park is not in my state. That's a state issue. If it was going up in my state, I'd be more involved and more incensed - calling my representatives and writing letters to the editor, etc. As it is, it's not in my state, and I'm not going to attend, so really it's not a burning issue to me. That doesn't mean I won't speak my mind about their tax incentives (that's the government support - tax incentives based on the employment and other revenues that they expect to add to the area, like many other businesses get).

Don't worry about me paying attention. I live in the Bible Belt. I know the deal.

 

[Jose Fly]

I would like to suggest that what you experienced was not religious fundamentalism but a group psychoses which is present in other groups besides religious organizations. The attitude you describe and reject is not due to indoctrination per se but it is more of a psychological disorder bred into a specific subculture.

That's an interesting possibility, and it may indeed explain some of what I experienced. However, as I said earlier, much of what went on there was very consistent with other fundamentalist Christian internet groups and the fundies I grew up around. So while group psychosis may explain things like how they would post insane amounts of prophetic predictions yet even though they never came to be, no one pointed that out.

There are millions of Christian fundamentalist that have none of the qualities you mention above.

Such as what? I'm sure you're aware there is a bit of literature out there regarding the psychology of fundamentalism and it explains quite a lot of what I observed.

Many political and philosophical liberals, atheist, agnostics, conservatives, Muslims, etc. all share these same characteristics. Many times in debate on this forum, at great pearl to myself, I refer to my opponent as speaking from an oppositional defiant disorder described in the DSM which is used the medical profession to identify mental disorders.

Certainly. No one is totally immune to those things.

The fact is, no single group is exempt from the influence from such psychotic reactions. To use this illness as an argument against religious fundamentalism is a very unintellectual approach.

If you think my point here is, "all fundamentalist Christians are mentally ill" then you misunderstand greatly.

 

[Jose Fly]

What do you mean by "actively opposing them?"

In the Muslim world, there are several national mainstream Muslim organizations that take an active role in trying to remind the West that Muslim extremists don't represent Islam. CAIR is the first one that comes to my mind and is very active in this area. Where is the mainstream Christian equivalent?

I am Methodist, formerly Catholic. Both large groups of Christians have a large number of fairly liberal constituents. Not sure if you're very familiar with "that sort" of Christian, but there are lots and lots of us.

I'm very aware of this. My wife and most of my friends fit this category.

One of the joys of being an American Christian is that we get to mix FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF RELIGION into our daily lives and faith. That means we also respect the rights of others to practice their faith openly. That doesn't mean we agree with them. But I'm not really sure how you expect us to "oppose" them. We can't and shouldn't stop them from practicing their faith, writing books, calling in to talk shows, starting wacky websites and amusement parks, etc. It's their right.

No one's telling you to shut their churches down or anything like that. But this "Oh well, it's their right" and shrug your shoulders attitude is a big reason why when you actually pay attention, it's the fundamentalist Christians who are dominating the national dialog on Christianity and who represent "Christian values" and such in the political world.

If you don't like that, then you need to do something about it.

Not sure where you got this. You mentioned three far right and weird organizations and I simply said they were not representative of US Christianity in general.

Which I never claimed at all, so why you made that comment is unclear.

And my discussion was concerning the differences between CONSERVATIVE Christians and wacky fundamentalists - since there are marked differences between many of them.

Ok then, give an example of a conservative Christian group.

Campaign? Why would we need a campaign?

Well, if you're totally fine with Christianity in politics, media, and such being represented by fundamentalists, then you don't need to do anything at all.

We have churches full of moderate, liberal, and even some conservative Christians who don't believe in some of things wacky fundamentalists believe. We are members of religious forums and other internet groups and we speak out against those things. We have leaders and pastors and authors who disagree with and teach against those beliefs. I don't know what else you're expecting. As I said, they do have freedom of religion and freedom of speech on their side.

So you post on the internet and talk about it in church. But again, if you're fine with the state of things, that's all you need to do.

That stupid theme park is not in my state. That's a state issue. If it was going up in my state, I'd be more involved and more incensed - calling my representatives and writing letters to the editor, etc.

Right...because it's only people from Kentucky who are aware of that museum and might associate Adam and Even frolicking with dinosaurs with Christianity. It's not in your back yard, so....*shrug*.

Don't worry about me paying attention. I live in the Bible Belt. I know the deal.

And what exactly is "the deal"?

 

[Kathryn]

In the Muslim world, there are several national mainstream Muslim organizations that take an active role in trying to remind the West that Muslim extremists don't represent Islam. CAIR is the first one that comes to my mind and is very active in this area. Where is the mainstream Christian equivalent?

The Interfaith Alliance
The Clergy Leadership Council
Presbyterian Church (USA)
United Methodist Church
Episcopal Church
Disciples of Christ
United Church of Christ
Evangelical Lutheran Church
Syrian Orthodox Church
Antiochian Orthodox Church
Mennonites
Reformed Church in America
The Center for Progressive Christianity
Churches for Middle East Peace
National Council of Churches USA
International Council of Community Churches

Just to name a very few of the many, many moderate, progressive or liberal, and very politically active, churches and Christian organizations in the US.

No one's telling you to shut their churches down or anything like that. But this "Oh well, it's their right" and shrug your shoulders attitude is a big reason why when you actually pay attention, it's the fundamentalist Christians who are dominating the national dialog on Christianity and who represent "Christian values" and such in the political world.

If you don't like that, then you need to do something about it.

Not to be horsey, but I think it's a bit judgmental of you if you assume that I'm NOT doing something about it. Why would you assume that - because I don't get involved if a creationist museum or a ridiculous ARK thingie is built up in Kentucky or wherever, and they get some tax incentives? It's not that I don't care - it's that it's NOT MY BUSINESS. I can't vote there, I can't do a thing about it other than voice my opinion on it. Which I do.

Ok then, give an example of a conservative Christian group.

Holt Adoption Agency
The Abba Fund
The Navigators
Campus Crusade for Christ
L'Abri Fellowship International

I don't agree with all of their platforms, but you asked for some conservative groups and here are a few I can think of right off the top of my head.

L'Abri is probably the most controversial of the lot. I included it specifically BECAUSE some fundamentalist groups use Schaeffer's writings as a sort of jumping off point. I am very familiar with Schaeffer's views, and he would not condone the wackiness of some of the groups who misuse his teachings.

Well, if you're totally fine with Christianity in politics, media, and such being represented by fundamentalists, then you don't need to do anything at all.

There's a big dfference between infringing on the rights of others and "not doing anything at all." Don't assume I'm not doing anything to counteract fundamentalist wackos. You don't even know me.

So you post on the internet and talk about it in church. But again, if you're fine with the state of things, that's all you need to do.

Not that I owe you any sort of explanation, but I vote. I volunteer. I contribute to charities which reflect my beliefs. I invest my personal time and assets into causes, both large and small, which I feel accurately represent the Christian, societal, and political beliefs that I embrace.

I live my faith and it manifests itself in all areas of my life.

Right...because it's only people from Kentucky who are aware of that museum and might associate Adam and Even frolicking with dinosaurs with Christianity. It's not in your back yard, so....*shrug*.

There are more compelling causes that require my time and effort. As I've stated repeatedly, this museum is not in my state so I can't vote about it. And I have limited time to invest in causes - this ain't one of 'em.

 

[science_is_my_god]

I searched around the internet for a fundamentalist Christian discussion group that tightly controlled their membership.

I'm so terribly sorry if this was posted earlier and I somehow missed it, but would you care to share with the rest of us as to what discussion group you would be referring to? I find your experiment most interesting. :yes:

 

[Jose Fly]

The Interfaith Alliance
The Clergy Leadership Council
Presbyterian Church (USA)
United Methodist Church
Episcopal Church
Disciples of Christ
United Church of Christ
Evangelical Lutheran Church
Syrian Orthodox Church
Antiochian Orthodox Church
Mennonites
Reformed Church in America
The Center for Progressive Christianity
Churches for Middle East Peace
National Council of Churches USA
International Council of Community Churches

Just to name a very few of the many, many moderate, progressive or liberal, and very politically active, churches and Christian organizations in the US.

I didn't ask if "mainstream" Christian organizations exist; no one is disputing that (especially if we include just denominations). I asked for the Christian equivalent of CAIR, who has as one of their core missions to ensure people don't conclude Muslim extremists represent Islam.

Where do any of those groups do that with regards to fundamentalist Christianity?

Not to be horsey, but I think it's a bit judgmental of you if you assume that I'm NOT doing something about it. Why would you assume that - because I don't get involved if a creationist museum or a ridiculous ARK thingie is built up in Kentucky or wherever, and they get some tax incentives?

Because your'e debating me on it. Nevertheless, what specifically do you do to ensure people don't think fundamentalist Christians represent Christianity?

It's not that I don't care - it's that it's NOT MY BUSINESS. I can't vote there, I can't do a thing about it other than voice my opinion on it. Which I do.

And you wonder why I question whether you do anything? CAIR issues strong public statements and implements comprehensive outreach plans regarding the actions of Muslim extremists on the other side of the world, yet you're telling me a multi-million dollar creation museum that gets national and international media attention and millions of visitors per year isn't any of your business. See the difference?

Holt Adoption Agency
The Abba Fund
The Navigators
Campus Crusade for Christ
L'Abri Fellowship International

I checked out the web sites of those organizations. How exactly are the Holt Adoption Agency, Abba Fund, Campus Crusades for Christ, conservative Christian groups?

The Navigators seem to be pretty conservative, and from what I can tell from their statement of faith look like they're right there with the sort of crazy stuff typical of other fundamentalists (Biblical literalism, young-earth creationism, end times prophecies).

I don't agree with all of their platforms, but you asked for some conservative groups and here are a few I can think of right off the top of my head.

What exactly don't you agree with?

L'Abri is probably the most controversial of the lot. I included it specifically BECAUSE some fundamentalist groups use Schaeffer's writings as a sort of jumping off point. I am very familiar with Schaeffer's views, and he would not condone the wackiness of some of the groups who misuse his teachings.

Can you give some specifics? And if what you say is true, then that begs the obvious question: Why aren't they actively opposing the alleged misuse of the teachings? Plus, their statement of faith seems pretty non-conservative and might even be described as somewhat liberal.

There's a big dfference between infringing on the rights of others and "not doing anything at all." Don't assume I'm not doing anything to counteract fundamentalist wackos. You don't even know me.

So again, what exactly are you doing?

Not that I owe you any sort of explanation, but I vote. I volunteer. I contribute to charities which reflect my beliefs. I invest my personal time and assets into causes, both large and small, which I feel accurately represent the Christian, societal, and political beliefs that I embrace.

And that's all fine, but what specifically are you doing to ensure people don't get the impression that fundamentalist Christians are typical of Christianity?

There are more compelling causes that require my time and effort. As I've stated repeatedly, this museum is not in my state so I can't vote about it. And I have limited time to invest in causes - this ain't one of 'em.

And that's fine, but you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of allowing fundamentalist Christians to seize the political and social stage and claim to speak for Christianity as a whole.

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm so terribly sorry if this was posted earlier and I somehow missed it, but would you care to share with the rest of us as to what discussion group you would be referring to? I find your experiment most interesting. :yes:

I'd rather not. Plus, the forum apparently experienced a cyber attack of some sort and hasn't been running for a couple of months now. That's the main reason I'm not still there.

 

[Kathryn]

I didn't ask if "mainstream" Christian organizations exist; no one is disputing that (especially if we include just denominations). I asked for the Christian equivalent of CAIR, who has as one of their core missions to ensure people don't conclude Muslim extremists represent Islam.

Where do any of those groups do that with regards to fundamentalist Christianity?

No, actually you asked for mainstream Chrsitian groups who actively oppose fundamentalist theology and behaviors and I gave you a whole list of them. Surprise! Many of them are mainstream denominations! As for their core mission - that's not what you asked for. However, several of the organizations I listed which are not denominations exist SOLELY for the purpose of being politically active as liberal and/or progressive organizations.

I don't know what exactly you're looking for. Specifics? You can just as easily Google each group as I can to see how politically active they are. Most of them are extremely active politically and lean to the moderate or liberal side of things politically.

Fighting fundamenalism and the far Christian right are definitely some of the goals of many of the organizations I posted. They make public statements, engage in debates on TV, radio and the internet, they send letters to Congress, the Senate, and the President regarding political and social issues, to make certain that these groups don't assume that most or even many Christians are misrepresented by fundamentalists, etc. etc

Wow, sounds like CAIR.

Nevertheless, what specifically do you do to ensure people don't think fundamentalist Christians represent Christianity?

Sigh. I've already told you, but I'll repeat it. I vote. I volunteer. I give time, money, and talents to causes which reflect my moderate/libertarian philosophy. I speak out, at work, at church, to my friends, online, you name it.

I'm not a full time political activist. I'm a wife, mother, daughter, sister, grandmother, banker and a dozen other hats first and foremost. But I am a moderate Christian in all those roles.

For a long while I really kept up with the Southern Poverty Law Center. You might say it was a pet organization of mine. By self educating myself on white separatist groups and the Christian Identity Movement, I was able to expose a group of them to my brother and several of his acquaintances who were getting involved with them due to other common interests. Due to my influence, my brother managed to break away from that group (not without some pretty serious drama) and was able to also keep others from getting involved.

What specifically are YOU doing to counteract fundamentalist wackos?

And you wonder why I question whether you do anything? CAIR issues strong public statements and implements comprehensive outreach plans regarding the actions of Muslim extremists on the other side of the world, yet you're telling me a multi-million dollar creation museum that gets national and international media attention and millions of visitors per year isn't any of your business. See the difference?

As far as I know, no creationist museum curators or Ark enthusiasts have blown themselves and others up in any crowded marketplaces.

See the difference?

I checked out the web sites of those organizations. How exactly are the Holt Adoption Agency, Abba Fund, Campus Crusades for Christ, conservative Christian groups?

My family has adopted two children through Holt. Trust me when I say they are a very conservative Christian organization. Let me put it this way - if you're not a conservative Christian, you're not going to be able to adopt through Holt. Same with the Abba Fund - no gay families will be considered, for example.

Campus Crusade - I'll let you do your homework on them. They are a conservative, evangelical group.

You asked for conservative Christian groups - not fundamentalist groups. All the groups I named are considered conservative rather than liberal. I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly.

The Navigators seem to be pretty conservative, and from what I can tell from their statement of faith look like they're right there with the sort of crazy stuff typical of other fundamentalists (Biblical literalism, young-earth creationism, end times prophecies).

Wow, you got that from their statement of faith?

Statement of Faith
\
The Navigators holds several core beliefs that form the foundation of our ministry.

We Believe:

• That the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inspired by God and inerrant in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority in faith and life.
• In one God, the Creator; eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• That Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and that He was and remains true God and true man.
• That God created Adam and Eve in the divine image; that they sinned, and thereby incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God; and that, as a result of Adam's sin, all human beings are now born with a sinful nature and stand guilty before God.
• That the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice; and that all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.
• In the resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord, in His ascension into Heaven, and in His present life there for us, as High Priest and Advocate.
• In the blessed hope of the personal and imminent return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
• That all who by faith receive the Lord Jesus Christ are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God.
• That the Holy Spirit indwells and gives spiritual life to all believers, enables them to understand biblical truth, empowers them for godly living, and equips them for service and witness.
• In the bodily resurrection of the just and unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved, and the everlasting punishment of the lost.

Statement of Faith - The Navigators

Actually, the Navigators focus more on the study of the Bible in general - in depth study of the original languages, historical setting, etc. If by reading this statement of faith, you conclude that they are akin to fundamentalist wackos...we've got a serious communication problem concerning terminology.

What exactly don't you agree with?

This thread isn't about what I believe in when it comes to Christianity - we are discussing whether or not conservative and moderate Christians "do enough" (in your eyes) to distance themselves from fundamentalist wackos.

And that's all fine, but what specifically are you doing to ensure people don't get the impression that fundamentalist Christians are typical of Christianity?

To be honest, I don't much care for the "general impression of the general public."

What do you want me to do - start wearing T-shirts that decry the Ark theme park? Write my congressman (who would be very confused as to why I was writing him about a museum in Kentucky)?

Other than living responsibly, practicing acceptance and tolerance of differing views and lifestyles, voting my conscience, and being outspoken, what do you think I should be doing? Organizing a Million Moderates March on Washington? Sorry - I don't have time for that. I'm too busy volunteering at the local women's shelter to go to Washington.

And that's fine, but you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of allowing fundamentalist Christians to seize the political and social stage and claim to speak for Christianity as a whole./QUOTE]

They can claim it all they want. Fundamentalist wacko Muslims, and communists, and all other sorts of unsavories do it all the time.

I live in Texas, and do you realize how many people think, for instance, that Sarah Palin is a complete nutjob? I don't know a SINGLE PERSON who thinks she's got a brain any bigger than a walnut. I don't know if she's a fundamentalist or not, but I know that fundamentalists sure seem to like her.

My point is - she may think she's the voice of conservatives, and liberals may think she's the voice of conservatives, but plenty of conservatives know she's not.

Same with crazy museum founders. Let them build their hokey museum. Who cares? If they want to spend their money that way, more power to them. Should we subsidize it with tax dollars? No, not any more than we should subsidize the "Ground Zero Mosque" with tax dollars.

 

[science_is_my_god]

I'm so terribly sorry if this was posted earlier and I somehow missed it, but would you care to share with the rest of us as to what discussion group you would be referring to? I find your experiment most interesting. :yes:

I'd rather not. Plus, the forum apparently experienced a cyber attack of some sort and hasn't been running for a couple of months now. That's the main reason I'm not still there.

Ok then, you have no evidence to back up your claims.

 

[lunamoth]

Archbishop: Stop Teaching Creationism

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Pardon me, but your prejudices are showing.

Fundamentalist wackos are about as much my colleagues as Mao Tse Tung is your colleague.

[...]

American Family Association - far right. FAR right. Extremists - not mainstream.

Would you consider the Southern Baptist Convention to be mainstream? I would hope so, since with more than 16 million members, it's a bit large to be "fringe".

The American Family Association's Arlington Group counts the Southern Baptist Convention as a member.

Mainstream Christians are more colleagues of Christian extremists than they normally like to think, IMO.

And that's not even looking at the Catholics, where some very (IMO) extreme and odious things get funded by groups like the Knights of Columbus, the American Council of Catholic Bishops, and the Catholic League, which are mainstream in the sense that they receive money - either directly or indirectly - from virtually all average Catholics... and in some cases from every Catholic who donates to the Church.

Not to pick on the Catholics, though - I'm sure that in most Protestant denominations, there are ways that money is funnelled from mainstream members to "extremists"... they just tend to be a bit less obvious.

 

[Kathryn]

9-10s, I don't disagree that the lines can blur sometimes, just as they can with any group. And I for one don't care much for most Baptists - I hate to say it, but I think they've gotten more extreme in recent years and I don't much care to associate with some of them because of their strident intolerance.


Even so, I do know many Baptists who would call themselves members of the Southern Baptist Convention, who are appalled at some of the recent directives and developments within that group, and yet refuse to leave it, hoping to create change from within.

"Some of my best friends are Baptist" - including my worrisome mother in law, who I am sure is convinced my husband and I are going to hell in a handbasket because we drink and dance!

And we're METHODISTS - that's pretty bad as it is...

Still - even with 16 million members (haven't verified that but I'll take your word for it for now), the Southern Baptist Convention body encompasses a wide range of faith expressions.

That being said...

Not sure if you know many Baptists, but I know a slew of 'em, and they are a joinin' bunch if ever there was one. I mean, if their preacher says be there Sunday morning for church AND Sunday school, and again Sunday night, and then Wednesday, and then you best do a group bible study as well each week, then by golly they are going to do it.

And make a potluck meal out of it too.

(To any Southern Baptists out there, I do apologize for blatant generalizations, but I'm speaking generally - I know there are exceptions out there, but dang it, you guys go to church a lot - can I get an Amen?)

That is troublesome - especially when it comes to voting. However, I have yet to see any of them strap a bomb on themselves or fly a plane into a building.

As long as they're not breaking any laws, or infringing on my rights, they can have at it all they like.

Same goes to the rest of you.

 

[Jose Fly]

No, actually you asked for mainstream Chrsitian groups who actively oppose fundamentalist theology and behaviors and I gave you a whole list of them. Surprise! Many of them are mainstream denominations! As for their core mission - that's not what you asked for. However, several of the organizations I listed which are not denominations exist SOLELY for the purpose of being politically active as liberal and/or progressive organizations.

I haven't seen any evidence that those groups you listed are actively attempting to distance themselves from fundamentalist Christians and ensuring that fundies don't speak for Christianity.

I don't know what exactly you're looking for. Specifics? You can just as easily Google each group as I can to see how politically active they are. Most of them are extremely active politically and lean to the moderate or liberal side of things politically.

I'm not the one claiming they are doing what you are claiming. Perhaps some of them are doing what you say. If so, I'd like to see it.

See, I'm pretty politically and socially active. But when issues come up that relate to Christianity in one form or another, guess who's always on the other side of the table? It ain't the Mennonites...

Fighting fundamenalism and the far Christian right are definitely some of the goals of many of the organizations I posted.

Which ones? Can you show me some examples?

Sigh. I've already told you, but I'll repeat it. I vote. I volunteer. I give time, money, and talents to causes which reflect my moderate/libertarian philosophy. I speak out, at work, at church, to my friends, online, you name it.

Can you give a specific example of you actively opposing fundamentalist Christianity and speaking out against it?

For a long while I really kept up with the Southern Poverty Law Center. You might say it was a pet organization of mine. By self educating myself on white separatist groups and the Christian Identity Movement, I was able to expose a group of them to my brother and several of his acquaintances who were getting involved with them due to other common interests. Due to my influence, my brother managed to break away from that group (not without some pretty serious drama) and was able to also keep others from getting involved.

That's great!

What specifically are YOU doing to counteract fundamentalist wackos?

Me? LOL! Maybe we're not clear here, but I personally find Christianity as a whole to be rather silly. If fundies are making it look even more so, all the better.

As far as I know, no creationist museum curators or Ark enthusiasts have blown themselves and others up in any crowded marketplaces.

See the difference?

So you're just fine with them being the public face of Christianity?

My family has adopted two children through Holt. Trust me when I say they are a very conservative Christian organization. Let me put it this way - if you're not a conservative Christian, you're not going to be able to adopt through Holt. Same with the Abba Fund - no gay families will be considered, for example.

Campus Crusade - I'll let you do your homework on them. They are a conservative, evangelical group.

You asked for conservative Christian groups - not fundamentalist groups. All the groups I named are considered conservative rather than liberal. I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly.

So how are they not fundamentalists then?

Actually, the Navigators focus more on the study of the Bible in general - in depth study of the original languages, historical setting, etc. If by reading this statement of faith, you conclude that they are akin to fundamentalist wackos...we've got a serious communication problem concerning terminology.

As I said, they adhere to Biblical literalism, young-earth creationism, and end times prophecy. So perhaps your communication problem has more to do with what each of us considers "crazy".

This thread isn't about what I believe in when it comes to Christianity - we are discussing whether or not conservative and moderate Christians "do enough" (in your eyes) to distance themselves from fundamentalist wackos.

You stated that you didn't agree with those groups on some issues, but you won't say which ones? Why not?

To be honest, I don't much care for the "general impression of the general public."

And thus fundies seize the stage in your absence.

What do you want me to do - start wearing T-shirts that decry the Ark theme park? Write my congressman (who would be very confused as to why I was writing him about a museum in Kentucky)?

Other than living responsibly, practicing acceptance and tolerance of differing views and lifestyles, voting my conscience, and being outspoken, what do you think I should be doing? Organizing a Million Moderates March on Washington? Sorry - I don't have time for that. I'm too busy volunteering at the local women's shelter to go to Washington.

You do whatever you want. Polls show American youth are leaving Christianity in droves. That's just fine with me.

They can claim it all they want. Fundamentalist wacko Muslims, and communists, and all other sorts of unsavories do it all the time.

They sure can.

I live in Texas, and do you realize how many people think, for instance, that Sarah Palin is a complete nutjob? I don't know a SINGLE PERSON who thinks she's got a brain any bigger than a walnut. I don't know if she's a fundamentalist or not, but I know that fundamentalists sure seem to like her.

My point is - she may think she's the voice of conservatives, and liberals may think she's the voice of conservatives, but plenty of conservatives know she's not.

Yet somehow she continues to drive political discourse and influence elections. Huh.

Same with crazy museum founders. Let them build their hokey museum. Who cares? If they want to spend their money that way, more power to them. Should we subsidize it with tax dollars? No, not any more than we should subsidize the "Ground Zero Mosque" with tax dollars.

Hey, if you're fine with it, so am I.

 

[Jose Fly]

Ok then, you have no evidence to back up your claims.

You mean to show that I'm not making all this up and it's just a figment of my imagination? If so, then yeah...I suppose so.

 

[Jose Fly]

Archbishop: Stop Teaching Creationism

Yup...no doubt Christians in other countries are like, "What the heck are you guys doing over there?" Apparently their American brethren can't be bothered.