A social experiment with fundamentalist Christians

[Jose Fly]

As an aside to your main point, I'm really grateful you took on a persona other than your own. I had some negative experiences in fundamentalist churches - both as a female and in general, and I'm not able to be quite fair in assessing evangelical Christianity - yet.

For crying out loud, I'm having a hard time figuring out what to say. Guess it's still a sore point. Anyway, we all could try on another role sometime, experiment with how people respond to us. It would be eye-opening.

Yeah, it was totally unexpected and rather shocking as it progressed. It definitely made me more cognizant of both how I interact with women and how I raise my daughters. It was also rather saddening.

 

[lunamoth]

If so, I'd love to see some examples.

Rick Warren - Rick Warren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - a conservative Christian who is not bat-sh** crazy

Jim Wallis - more progressive than Warren but still much more conservative than myself- speaks out against extremism in Christianity - Sojourners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Rick Warren - Rick Warren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - a conservative Christian who is not bat-sh** crazy

IMO, Rick Warren is a good example of what's wrong with Christianity today.

 

[lunamoth]

IMO, Rick Warren is a good example of what's wrong with Christianity today.

I am not a fan - but he is an example of a conservative Christian who is not a nut-job.

 

[Jose Fly]

Lunamoth, I think you're missing the point. Again, no one is disputing that moderate and liberal Christians and organizations exist. The question is, are they actively "fighting against fundamentalist Christianity" as was claimed earlier?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not a fan - but he is an example of a conservative Christian who is not a nut-job.

He runs a freakin' "pray the gay away" program out of his church. If he's not a full-on nut-job, he's definitely borderline.

 

[Songbird]

Yeah, it was totally unexpected and rather shocking as it progressed. It definitely made me more cognizant of both how I interact with women and how I raise my daughters. It was also rather saddening.

I still recall being eight years old and feeling ashamed to make eye contact with men after a Sunday morning message about wives submitting to husbands. Even with the pastor's great effort to convey that this wasn't demeaning or belittling, I felt that boys must be made more in God's image than girls, and girls are less human than boys. Boys clearly were more favored, and God clearly was male. I've heard countless messages and conversations about gender roles throughout my years in churches that have been mostly unhelpful and some quite harmful.

But to be fair, others have had very positive experiences with church and gender. Mostly men. I'm kidding. I believe Kathryn has had wonderful experiences.

 

[lunamoth]

Lunamoth, I think you're missing the point. Again, no one is disputing that moderate and liberal Christians and organizations exist. The question is, are they actively "fighting against fundamentalist Christianity" as was claimed earlier?

Did you read the article about Sojourners?

 

[lunamoth]

He runs a freakin' "pray the gay away" program out of his church. If he's not a full-on nut-job, he's definitely borderline.

The OP starts out with equating fundamentalism with conspiracy-obsessed nuts who are fearful of others and mean. Now the goal-post has moved and fundamentalist nut-job is anyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong and that there is a spiritual approach to changing it.

 

[Jacksnyte]

The OP starts out with equating fundamentalism with conspiracy-obsessed nuts who are fearful of others and mean. Now the goal-post has moved and fundamentalist nut-job is anyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong and that there is a spiritual approach to changing it.

Well, it's one of many nutty symptoms. Honestly, what one does in the privacy of one's bedroom is nobody's business but their own (unless, of course, one is hurting one's self or others). The recidivism of people who undergo such "treatment" is extremely high. I think I saw Benny Hinn try to "cure' a homosexual once. He waved his jacket at the guy, who promptly fell to the floor and proceeded to flop around and cry. Then he jumped up, and minced his way back to his seat.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The OP starts out with equating fundamentalism with conspiracy-obsessed nuts who are fearful of others and mean. Now the goal-post has moved and fundamentalist nut-job is anyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong and that there is a spiritual approach to changing it.

The OP describes people who are so blinded by their faith that they are willing to ignore and twist evidence to shoehorn it into their belief system. I think that's a valid description of the "conversion therapy" movement.

And it's rife with conspiracy-obsessed nuts itself, since part of accepting that "conversion therapy" is a good idea means coming up with rationalizations for why the psychiatric community recognized homosexuality as perfectly healthy decades ago. If you're going to accept "conversion therapy" is beneficial, then you've got to be able to dismiss all the evidence from the mainstream psychiatric community that shows it to be extremely harmful... usually that involves the creation of some sort of "conspiracy" to "normalize" homosexuality.

"Pray the gay away" is a perfect fit with the attitudes described in the OP.

Edit: IMO, it's very difficult to be a supporter of "conversion therapy" while knowing anything at all of the mainstream psychiatric position on homosexuality without being a conspiracy-obsessed nut.

 

[lunamoth]

Well, it's one of many nutty symptoms. Honestly, what one does in the privacy of one's bedroom is nobody's business but their own (unless, of course, one is hurting one's self or others)

I completely agree with your second sentence. You first sentence, shows the slippery logic being applied here. The OP starts out saying fundamentalists are all bat-sh** crazy. I agree that many of them probably are and that fundamentalism is a problem here and around the world. However, not all fundamentalist Christians are mean and insane, and it is slander to say so.

However, now the goal post continues to move, and it's not just the angry, fearful, conspiracy theorists that self-select their presence on boards where their warped views are accepted and encouraged. Now all conservative Christians are being lumped in and being called nuts because they share some views with the bat-sh** crazy people.

And, then we see basically all Christians of any viewpoint lumped in because they are somehow not vocal enough in their rejection of fundamentalism, even though they are and this has been pointed out throughout the thread.

Examples are provided and those examples are not sufficient. You fight against creationism in the schools, that's not enough. You fight against the nuts burning the Koran, not enough. Post you disagreement on discussion boards like this, not enough. Write a book that points out the evils of fundamentalism? Not enough. The goal post moves.

The next move in the game, now that all Christians have been lumped together as somehow supporting extremism in one way or another, is to describe how the fundamentalists are the true Christians, the ones you can respect for their 'honesty,' and those who speak against fundamentalism are not really good Christians, but wishy-washy, pick and choose Christians.

 

[lunamoth]

The recidivism of people who undergo such "treatment" is extremely high. I think I saw Benny Hinn try to "cure' a homosexual once. He waved his jacket at the guy, who promptly fell to the floor and proceeded to flop around and cry. Then he jumped up, and minced his way back to his seat.

And from what I now of benny Hinn, he is nuts and that whole shtick is nuts. However, it is not honest to take the worst examples and make gross generalizations from them. Really, that's pretty much the point I am trying to make with my posts here.

 

[lunamoth]

The OP describes people who are so blinded by their faith that they are willing to ignore and twist evidence to shoehorn it into their belief system. I think that's a valid description of the "conversion therapy" movement.

And it's rife with conspiracy-obsessed nuts itself, since part of accepting that "conversion therapy" is a good idea means coming up with rationalizations for why the psychiatric community recognized homosexuality as perfectly healthy decades ago. If you're going to accept "conversion therapy" is beneficial, then you've got to be able to dismiss all the evidence from the mainstream psychiatric community that shows it to be extremely harmful... usually that involves the creation of some sort of "conspiracy" to "normalize" homosexuality.

"Pray the gay away" is a perfect fit with the attitudes described in the OP.

Edit: IMO, it's very difficult to be a supporter of "conversion therapy" while knowing anything at all of the mainstream psychiatric position on homosexuality without being a conspiracy-obsessed nut.

'Pray the gay away' is offensive on many levels. I formally denounce it.

Added: For the record, you equate Rick Warren with the bat-sh**crazies described in the OP?

 

[Jose Fly]

Did you read the article about Sojourners?

Which one?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I completely agree with your second sentence. You first sentence, shows the slippery logic being applied here. The OP starts out saying fundamentalists are all bat-sh** crazy. I actually agree that many of them probably are and that fundamentalism is a problem here and around the world. However, not all fundamentalist Christians are mean and insane, and it is slander to say so.

However, now the goal post continues to move, and it's not just the angry, fearful, conspiracy theorists that self-select their presence on boards where their warped views are accepted and encouraged. Now all conservative Christians are being lumped in and being called nuts because they share some views with the bat-sh** crazy people.

Speaking for myself, I'm only lumping those people in together when they share those bat-**** crazy views... and I do include "conversion therapy" in that category.

And, then we see basically all Christians of any viewpoint lumped in because they are somehow not vocal enough in their rejection of fundamentalism, even though they are and this has been pointed out throughout the thread.

Examples are provided and those examples are not sufficient. You fight against creationism in the schools, that's not enough. You fight against the nuts burning the Koran, not enough. Post you disagreement on discussion boards like this, not enough. Write a book that points out the evils of fundamentalism? Not enough. The goal post moves.

Well, no, it's not enough. As long as a person gives with one hand and takes with another, it's not enough.

If a Christian supports the Southern Baptist Convention, the LDS Church, the Catholic Church, or any one of a number of other groups, then they do support hate. They may voice their dissent, vote the "right" way and do everything else, but their opposition will always be tempered by that measure of support.

In fact, I think there's more of a danger from the figures on the margins of "moderate" than there is from the extremist. Everybody can see that someone like Fred Phelps is a nutbar; we don't really need to worry about him, because he marginalizes himself just fine. IMO, the biggest problem, and the greatest harm, comes from the people who "clean up nice" and make the right sort of noises, but still support vile things: Rick Warren, James Dobson and their ilk. They're the ones who command influence.

The next move in the game, now that all Christians have been lumped together as somehow supporting extremism in one way or another, is to describe how the fundamentalists are the true Christians, the ones you can respect for their 'honesty,' and those who speak against fundamentalism are not really good Christians, but wishy-washy, pick and choose Christians.

That's where I stop short: while I do think that there's more consistency in the fundamentalist position than the more moderate position, if I have to choose between a kind, "wishy-washy" Christian and a mean, consistent Christian, I'll pick the wishy-washy one.

 

[Gunfingers]

Jose, can you by any chance post links to the threads on this site, or at least quote some examples? I enjoy reading crazy in its raw form.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

'Pray the gay away' is offensive on many levels. I formally denounce it.

Added: For the record, you equate Rick Warren with the bat-sh**crazies described in the OP?

I've seen worse, but on a scale of bat-**** crazy to reasonable, I think he's closer to the guano.

 

[Jose Fly]

The OP starts out with equating fundamentalism with conspiracy-obsessed nuts who are fearful of others and mean. Now the goal-post has moved and fundamentalist nut-job is anyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong and that there is a spiritual approach to changing it.

You don't believe fundamentalist Christians tend towards conspiracies and are mean-spirited?

 

[lunamoth]

Which one?

Any of them?

Here's one linked in the wiki article I posted: Jim Wallis on the story behind Pastor Terry Jones's change of heart