A social experiment with fundamentalist Christians

[Jose Fly]

The OP starts out saying fundamentalists are all bat-sh** crazy.

No it doesn't. Please don't attribute things to me which I never said.

And, then we see basically all Christians of any viewpoint lumped in because they are somehow not vocal enough in their rejection of fundamentalism, even though they are and this has been pointed out throughout the thread.

What? Seriously, please pay attention to what's being posted and respond to that, rather than what you think is being said.

Kathryn argued that fundamentalist Christians are a fringe minority within American Christianity. I pointed out that how if that's so, they have a disproportionally large voice in the national dialog, perhaps aided by the fact that the more numerous non-fundies don't speak out against their fundamentalist colleagues as often as they should.

No one has attempted to argue that since mainstream and liberal Christians don't speak out enough, they are therefore in the same crazy category as fundamentalists. Again, try and pay better attention.

Examples are provided and those examples are not sufficient. You fight against creationism in the schools, that's not enough. You fight against the nuts burning the Koran, not enough. Post you disagreement on discussion boards like this, not enough. Write a book that points out the evils of fundamentalism? Not enough. The goal post moves.

In the fights against creationism, the advocates are defending science, not defending Christianity from the fundamentalists. And if posting on the internet and writing books is all the mainstream Christians feel is necessary, fine. As the data shows, young people are leaving the faith in droves and specifically cite how Christianity is bigoted, anti-science, and backwards as their reasons for doing so.

And quite frankly, it's something I'm happy to see.

The next move in the game, now that all Christians have been lumped together as somehow supporting extremism in one way or another

Again, don't attribute things to me which I never said. If you are unable to do that, I'm not going to bother with again.

 

[lunamoth]

You don't believe fundamentalist Christians tend towards conspiracies and are mean-spirited?

As Kathryn pointed out, fundamentalism can mean extremist nuts, but it can also indicate those who adhere to the five fundamentals (which I just spent a few minutes trying find in Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God, but unbelievably are not in her index) but are otherwise nice people not into conspiracies.

I personally think it is nuts to reject science and I think it is wrong and unjust to discriminate against or otherwise oppress people who are gay.

Fundamentalism, in the sense of the meanness, craziness, and extremism described in the OP is wrong, I'd even say many facets of it are evil. But, as you can see by this thread, there is a tendency to extend these judgments to anyone who shares any beliefs whatsoever with the fundamentalists.

 

[lunamoth]

No it doesn't. Please don't attribute things to me which I never said.

What I discovered is that as loony and strange as fundamentalist Christians seem on open boards like this one, when they discuss things amongst themselves where they feel safe and like no one is listening, that's when the true crazy hate comes out. Also, they do not tolerate even the slightest bit of doubt or questioning from within. All one has to do is ask something like, "Really? Can you show me where that language is in the proposed bill" and you are immediately set upon by the group. I even had multiple threats of physical violence posted to me.

I also came away with a confirmation of some opinions I'd had of fundamentalists before the experiment, mostly that they are extremely paranoid, intentionally ignorant, and genuinely unhappy and angry in a very deep and serious way. And the fact that they've become more politically influential in recent years is something we as a country need to take very seriously. These are some very, very disturbed, messed up people.

I don't see any qualifiers here that *some* fundamentalists are crazy.

 

[lunamoth]

No one has attempted to argue that since mainstream and liberal Christians don't speak out enough, they are therefore in the same crazy category as fundamentalists. Again, try and pay better attention.

I'd bet dollars to donuts (which is probably going to have to change to "donuts to dollars" soon - last month, I actually paid $1 for a donut! But I'm getting off-topic) that for all but the most liberal of Christian denominations, given enough time I could show step-by-step how money from that denomination supports some very extreme, hateful things even if the individual members say they don't support them. I just described one example for the Baptists. I've worked through it myself for the Mormons and Catholics. I don't hold out any hope that the Methodists, Lutherans or Pentecostals will fare any better.

This looks pretty lumped in to me. *shrug*

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This looks pretty lumped in to me. *shrug*

Okay - pick a denomination and we'll see how well I can back up what I say.

 

[MoonWater]

What groups? And where are these protests against fundamentalist Christianity?


When I see a consistent, concerted effort by mainstream Christians to marginalize fundamentalists, I'll take note and change my opinion. In the absence of anything of the sort, there's only one conclusion to reach.


A facebook page that hasn't been active in almost 2 years and has 274 members is hardly anything to hold up as an example.

my whole point was that you may not know they're christian because they may not advertise that specifically. Besides lack of protestation doesn't automatically mean you support or don't care too much about what you're not protesting against. If Moderate Christians were in support of fundies then the fundies would be mainstream and not just a loud fringe group.

 

[lunamoth]

In the fights against creationism, the advocates are defending science, not defending Christianity from the fundamentalists. And if posting on the internet and writing books is all the mainstream Christians feel is necessary, fine.

The best way to fight fundamentalist Christianity is to show that that Christianity is not fundamentalism. Speaking out against fundamentalism is not the most effective way to do this. Karthryn, myself, and other Christians on this board have voiced our rejection of fundamentalism, and it has not made a dent in your perception of Christianity. Right? If we use bold caps in red and add stronger adjectives than bat-sh** crazy, will you then be convinced that we are the voice of Christianity, and not the fundies?

Already by looking into the abyss of this thread, I feel the abyss taking its part of me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The best way to fight fundamentalist Christianity is to show that that Christianity is not fundamentalism. Speaking out against fundamentalism is not the most effective way to do this. Karthryn, myself, and other Christians on this board have voiced our rejection of fundamentalism, and it has not made a dent in your perception of Christianity. Right? If we use bold caps in red and add stronger adjectives than bat-sh** crazy, will you then be convinced that we are the voice of Christianity, and not the fundies?

There is no one voice of Christianity. You have a voice, the fundies have a voice, and so do all the other Christians. They're all equally "Christian".

Edit: Christianity is fundamentalism. Christianity is also mainline Protestantism, Mormonism, Liberal Quakerism, Catholicism, and 37,000-odd other things. It's incredibly charitable, but it's also incredibly hateful. It's the religion of reasonable people, but it's also the religion of dangerous whack-jobs.

 

[lunamoth]

Again, don't attribute things to me which I never said. If you are unable to do that, I'm not going to bother with again.

I'm not attributing this to you. I don't recall if I've seen you say this, so probably you have not. I was not even responding to you directly when I wrote this post. It is the general way the game is played out - I've seen it over and over.

 

[lunamoth]

Okay - pick a denomination and we'll see how well I can back up what I say.

No doubt you can. There are fundamentalists across denominations.

 

[lunamoth]

There is no one voice of Christianity. You have a voice, the fundies have a voice, and so do all the other Christians. They're all equally "Christian".

Edit: Christianity is fundamentalism. Christianity is also mainline Protestantism, Mormonism, Liberal Quakerism, Catholicism, and 37,000-odd other things. It's incredibly charitable, but it's also incredibly hateful. It's the religion of reasonable people, but it's also the religion of dangerous whack-jobs.

Lol! OK, Jose - please take a look at this post by 9/10ths. It illustrates my point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No doubt you can. There are fundamentalists across denominations.

I'm not talking about the fundamentalists, though.

What I'm saying is that even moderate and liberal Christians, as long as they support their denomination or church, end up supporting things that they speak out against with very few exceptions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lol! OK, Jose - please take a look at this post by 9/10ths. It illustrates my point.

In what way?

Are you saying that fundamentalist Christians aren't Christian?

I'm not saying that these other people get to speak for you as a Christian; I'm saying that they are part of the Christian "voice" just as you are.

I'm also saying that your actions, including indirect support through your church or denomination, are part of your voice.

 

[lunamoth]

I'm not talking about the fundamentalists, though.

What I'm saying is that even moderate and liberal Christians, as long as they support their denomination or church, end up supporting things that they speak out against with very few exceptions.

As long as I pay my taxes and homeowners association fee I support things I disagree with.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As long as I pay my taxes and homeowners association fee I support things I disagree with.

I went over this with Kathryn earlier. I'm not talking about support that's unavoidable; I'm talking about support that is entirely voluntary. Nobody threatens you with prison or eviction for not tithing.

 

[lunamoth]

I went over this with Kathryn earlier. I'm not talking about support that's unavoidable; I'm talking about support that is entirely voluntary. Nobody threatens you with prison or eviction for not tithing.

So, you equate membership in any church with the support of extremism and fundamentalism?

 

[lunamoth]

That's where I stop short: while I do think that there's more consistency in the fundamentalist position than the more moderate position, if I have to choose between a kind, "wishy-washy" Christian and a mean, consistent Christian, I'll pick the wishy-washy one.

How did I miss this post? Jose - you did not take the step, but as you can see it has been taken none-the-less.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, you equate membership in any church with the support of extremism and fundamentalism?

Not any church, but many mainstream ones, yes.

If a church allows extremists to draw from the common pot of funds to support their activities, then anyone who pays into that pot, including the moderate or liberal church member, is literally supporting the extremist.

I suppose in some cases, this support may be inadvertent if the moderate member isn't aware of what the extremists of their church are up to, but the support is still there.

Do you disagree?

 

[science_is_my_god]

????????? You honestly think what I did was an attempt at "science"? Really?

Sigh...

 

[Jose Fly]

As Kathryn pointed out, fundamentalism can mean extremist nuts, but it can also indicate those who adhere to the five fundamentals (which I just spent a few minutes trying find in Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God, but unbelievably are not in her index) but are otherwise nice people not into conspiracies.

Specific examples?

I personally think it is nuts to reject science and I think it is wrong and unjust to discriminate against or otherwise oppress people who are gay.

So do you have examples of fundamentalist Christians who don't reject the findings of modern science?

Fundamentalism, in the sense of the meanness, craziness, and extremism described in the OP is wrong, I'd even say many facets of it are evil. But, as you can see by this thread, there is a tendency to extend these judgments to anyone who shares any beliefs whatsoever with the fundamentalists.

Perhaps by some people.

I don't see any qualifiers here that *some* fundamentalists are crazy.

The comments I made were specifically in regards to the people in the forum and the fundies I've known over the years. And I'm not going to attempt to speak for 9-10ths.