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A social experiment with fundamentalist Christians

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

I haven't seen any evidence that those groups you listed are actively attempting to distance themselves from fundamentalist Christians and ensuring that fundies don't speak for Christianity.

You can google them if you're really interested. If you care to take the small amount of time that requires, you'll see that they are politically active groups.

By the way, just how does one "ensure that fundies don't speak for Christianity?" How does anyone ensure that some other group doesn't grab the microphone and claim to speak for the people?

Does Lady Gaga or Justin Beiber represent all of our current musical talent? Or do they just get good ratings?

I'm not the one claiming they are doing what you are claiming. Perhaps some of them are doing what you say. If so, I'd like to see it.

Google - it's so easy, even a caveman can do it!

Me? LOL! Maybe we're not clear here, but I personally find Christianity as a whole to be rather silly. If fundies are making it look even more so, all the better.

See, I'm pretty politically and socially active. But when issues come up that relate to Christianity in one form or another, guess who's always on the other side of the table? It ain't the Mennonites...

Maybe they're on the other side of the table because they are diametrically opposed to whatever your various political goals are - I don't know, because I don't know much about you or your views. If you're expecting Christians as a whole to be supportive of abortion on demand or gay marriage, or whatever other cause you may pull out of your hat, you may be expecting too much. Sure you'll find many Christians that DO support those causes, but by and large the majority won't.

Now - if you're talking about whether or not tax dollars should support some goofy Christian theme park, you're much more likely to get more broad support from more Christians.

But it sounds to me like you are basically pretty negative towards Christians and Christianity in general. If that's the case, then no wonder you get negative feedback and find Christians on the other side of the table. Sheeze.

Can you give a specific example of you actively opposing fundamentalist Christianity and speaking out against it?

My voting record. I could give more examples but frankly, I don't think I need to go on. I think most reasonable people would say that I've made a pretty clear point about how our lives and interactions with people on a daily basis can speak volumes. And I've also given specific examples already. I'm not going to elaborate further because it's becoming increasingly clear to me that you're not really listening.

Like I said, I don't have time to organize a Million Moderates March on Washington, DC - sorry.

Besides that, you don't play fair. You don't answer questions that I ask you. When you start doing that, I'll reciprocate.


So you're just fine with them being the public face of Christianity?

That's your take, not mine. I rarely even listen to them. I pay more attention to people with more validity. I know who represents my beliefs and who doesn't.

That's like saying to Jennifer Anniston, "So, you're just fine with Lindsey Lohan being the public face of the movie industry?"

So how are they not fundamentalists then?

See - I KNEW you didn't know the difference between conservatives and fundamentalists!

You stated that you didn't agree with those groups on some issues, but you won't say which ones? Why not?

Because I'm not going to go to each website, read their statement of faith, dissect it, and report back to you.

I'll give you one example though, off the top of my head. Abba Fund doesn't fund adoptions to gay couples, or to my knowledge, single parents, and I disagree with that portion of their mission.

And thus fundies seize the stage in your absence.

I'm not absent. You just don't run into me a lot because we have different friends and interests. :p

You do whatever you want. Polls show American youth are leaving Christianity in droves. That's just fine with me.

People are free to do as they please when it comes to religion, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Let freedom ring! If people leave Christianity in droves, then that's their decision and their right, and I fully support their right to do so.

All I can do is live my life as responsibly as possible and try to raise my own family well. So far I have five kids and they are all Christians. The two that are married with children actively practice their faith, as do two of the other three. I have a wild child, but even though he is living a lifestyle that I disapprove of, he still claims Christianity as his faith, and I will leave the judging of that faith between him and God.

Yet somehow she continues to drive political discourse and influence elections. Huh.

Yep, lots of goobers in politics. Biden and Palin spring immediately to mind.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
9-10s, I don't disagree that the lines can blur sometimes, just as they can with any group.
No, not with any group. That's my point.

I'd bet dollars to donuts (which is probably going to have to change to "donuts to dollars" soon - last month, I actually paid $1 for a donut! But I'm getting off-topic) that for all but the most liberal of Christian denominations, given enough time I could show step-by-step how money from that denomination supports some very extreme, hateful things even if the individual members say they don't support them. I just described one example for the Baptists. I've worked through it myself for the Mormons and Catholics. I don't hold out any hope that the Methodists, Lutherans or Pentecostals will fare any better.

Now... you drew a parallel between Christianity and atheism in regard to the relationship between the mainstream and the extremist fringe elements, but I don't think the parallel works. If you did the same exercise I described above for the average atheist, the "worst" you might find is that his money supports things like billboards that some people find offensive and church-state separation legal funds. Nothing that attempts to actually hurt anyone, disadvantage anyone, or attempt to infringe on anyone's rights.

It's easy enough to find the links between mainstream and extremist Christianity. OTOH, you aren't going to find any sort of link from, say, CFI or the FFRF to any Maoist organization (to use your example of "extremist" atheists).

I can say with certainty that no Stalinists get a single cent of the money that I donate to atheist causes. Can you say with certainty that none of what you put in the collection plate ends up in the hands of people who do evil in the name of God?

There is a connection between mainstream and extremist Christianity in a way that there isn't a connection between the mainstream and extremist elements of non-religious analogs.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I can say with certainty that no Stalinists get a single cent of the money that I donate to atheist causes. Can you say with certainty that none of what you put in the collection plate ends up in the hands of people who do evil in the name of God?

I can say with certainty that no Branch Davidians or White Supremacist organizations get a single cent of the money that I donate to my particular causes.

Neither of us can say with unequivocal certainty that the money we give to various causes or that we spend with particular companies, etc doesn't go to causes we didn't mean to support, and that some of those end causes may be evil or harm others. Heck, our own TAX dollars do some of that!

I am careful about who I give to and who I support. I'm sure you are too.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
http://www.tcpc.org/

LiberationSpirituality.Net

Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace

http://www.progressivechristianalliance.org/

Ministries | Christian Worship | Church at Christianalliance.org

CrossLeft | Balancing the Christian Voice

The Center for Progressive Christianity - Home

National Catholic Reporter

Christian Peacemaker Teams | Getting in the way.

The Progressive Christian

WELCOME TO THE CPRT | Centre for Progressive Religious Thought

The Yale Forum on Religion and Ecology

Young Library for Progressive Theology - Home

The Beatitudes Society | Strengthening the progressive Christian network for justice, compassion, & peace - The Beatitudes Society

Different Voice Blog - The Daily Voice - The Daily Voice

http://www.jesusunplugged.org/links.html

Liberal Christian Resources - Home

http://pcbn.smartcampaigns.com/

Evolutionary Christianity

The Atheist Christian

http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/

Lunarpages Contact Support Page

http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/clergy_project.htm

The Dubious Disciple

Grace Cathedral in San Francisco Church

The Human Jesus and Christian Deism

Jesus Is A Liberal - Home Page

http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/js_main.html

iVillage Message Boards - iVillage Message Boards

http://www.liberalchristian.co.uk/

Welcome to www.radicalfaith.org

Mainline Protestant: Religion, Theology, History, Churches | Patheos

http://secure.agoramedia.com/index_spong.asp

The God Article - Church

Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party

Ministries | Christian Worship | Church at Christianalliance.org

Michael Dowd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Catholic Worker Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Living the Questions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Progressive National Baptist Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Red-Letter Christian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sojourners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.progressivechristianwitness.org/pcw.cfm?id=13&p=3


Read and learn.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I can say with certainty that no Branch Davidians or White Supremacist organizations get a single cent of the money that I donate to my particular causes.
That seems a strangely narrow category of harm.

Neither of us can say with unequivocal certainty that the money we give to various causes or that we spend with particular companies, etc doesn't go to causes we didn't mean to support, and that some of those end causes may be evil or harm others. Heck, our own TAX dollars do some of that!
Yes, I recognize that sometimes we're forced to do support causes we don't want to support, and sometimes we inadvertently support causes we don't mean to. But when I find out that I'm supporting something negative, and if I have the option, I stop supporting it.

The difference doesn't come when we don't know we're doing harm, or when we're forced to do harm... it comes when we know we're doing harm and do it anyhow.

For instance, I've gotten into long debates here with people who are members of churches that directly supported Proposition 8, and even though they're personally in favour of same-sex marriage and even in some cases say that their church leadership was wrong to do what they did, they continue to support their church. That's the sort of cognitive dissonance I'm saying is relatively common in mainstream Christianity, but I've yet to see it in atheist circles.
 

science_is_my_god

Philosophical Monist
I'm so terribly sorry if this was posted earlier and I somehow missed it, but would you care to share with the rest of us as to what discussion group you would be referring to? I find your experiment most interesting. :yes:

I'd rather not. Plus, the forum apparently experienced a cyber attack of some sort and hasn't been running for a couple of months now. That's the main reason I'm not still there.

Ok then, you have no evidence to back up your claims. :rolleyes:

You mean to show that I'm not making all this up and it's just a figment of my imagination? If so, then yeah...I suppose so. :rolleyes:
I never said a word about anybody "making up" anything, I am merely stating that your "science" isn't repeatable. All science needs to be repeatable. ;)
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I sometimes read various atheist boards out of curiosity, so I popped over to one to see what the top threads are, and under the theism board the top thread had an incredibly vile title berating Jesus. Many of the threads below it berated believers of all stripes in pretty much every way imaginable, and theists who post on those boards have a generally rough time of it. The attacks get very personal.

If I were to pose an an atheist, and then start having my doubts and making posts to suggest that just maybe atheism is wrong and perhaps I was going to join a church/mosque/temple whatever, I would bet the farm that there would be quick turnaround in attitude toward me (especially if the members detected a subterfuge). And I know that the punches are not pulled on those forums.

Some who are berated mercilessly on those boards are other atheists who suggest various ways of trying to get along with or find common ground with theists, or who say that atheists should not be as 'aggressive' and antagonistic toward theists, that such an approach is counterproductive. I see a lot of meanness (vile name calling often the least of it) on those boards, and they certainly are not a place where I would want to join or spend much time. They sound very similar to the OP description.

Is that where I should get my information about all atheists in general? The members there fit some stereotypes of atheists, and even some atheists I have met.

PS - I am not talking about Pharyngula, BTW. I like that blog, even if some of the comments by readers are extremist. :)
 
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science_is_my_god

Philosophical Monist
I searched around the internet for a fundamentalist Christian discussion group that tightly controlled their membership. Let's be clear here...the sorts of things they posted were some of the most vile, mean-spirited, disgusting views I'd ever seen.
I sometimes read various atheist boards out of curiosity, so I popped over to one to see what the top threads are, and under the theism board the top thread had an incredibly vile title berating Jesus. I see a lot of meanness (vile name calling often the least of it) on those boards, and they certainly are not a place where I would want to join or spend much time.
I see the two of you have discovered "human nature." It has been around ever since the dawn of mankind; so why are we still so stupefied by it millennia later? :shrug:
 

Civil Shephard

Active Member
Let's be clear here...the sorts of things they posted were some of the most vile, mean-spirited, disgusting views I'd ever seen. Everything...and I mean everything...was a conspiracy. There were threads about rounding up all Muslims in the US and deporting them, jailing them, or even killing them...

When I first started forums I went to myfox st louis and blogged there. It was a local website blog for the St Louis Fox station. It was amazing to me the Christian Conservative paranoid rhetoric. So I actually tried to stick around and help create a more consciouse awareness amoungst the poor racist non-sense some of them were believing...

It was amazing to me the vehemence of those who just knew that they were right! That God was judging them people over there and that's why he flooded New Orleans... yikes... prophets after the fact. I politely pointed things out to many of them from scripture and from experience and sometimes from good ole fashioned creativity. But then when Hannity and O'Rielly got Obama elected since I had warned them that would happen it seemed like some of them started to simmer down.

You know... you just can't sell fear anymore... and some folks really need to repent for doing it. Funny thing about that is now some Athiest are selling their lines of bull with a bucket of fear too. People are so similar when they think they're soooo different.
 
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science_is_my_god

Philosophical Monist
Here's a quick riddle for you:

What belief do all die-hard atheists and hardcore Christian-conservatives have in common?

The answer: Belief that the other is, and always will be, fundamentally and unquestionably wrong.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
I my experience, fundamentalists are people who have a lot of pent up emotion about something and don't know how to release it in a healthy way. So they turn to the Bible and pull out all the rules, all the doctrines and dogmas that they can think of and start preaching as loud as they can. Anyone who goes against their beliefs is seen as someone hostile, not because they are against the beliefs, but because the person, through no fault of their own, isn't listening to what the fundamentalist really wants. The greater the pent up emotion, the greater the adherence to their ideals. Very rarely does anyone just pick up a set of values and starts to follow them with any sort of commitment unless they are emotionally involved in some way, shape or form.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
EDIT: As I mentioned above, I was posting as a young female. It wasn't too long before I was struck by how differently I was treated. Being a male and always having posted as myself, I wasn't really prepared for what I experienced. In general, the men were very condescending and didn't take me seriously and the women really wanted to....what I call "bicker". The men regularly referred to me with terms like, "little girl", "sweetie", and even a few sexually offensive terms, and the women were even worse! Being the father of two young girls, I was really bothered by this treatment. At the very least, I came away from this experience determined to make sure my daughters don't ever allow anyone to treat them like that simply because of their sex.

As an aside to your main point, I'm really grateful you took on a persona other than your own. I had some negative experiences in fundamentalist churches - both as a female and in general, and I'm not able to be quite fair in assessing evangelical Christianity - yet.

For crying out loud, I'm having a hard time figuring out what to say. Guess it's still a sore point. Anyway, we all could try on another role sometime, experiment with how people respond to us. It would be eye-opening.
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
I think we need a clearer definition for the term "fundamentalist Christian."

I've grown up around CONSERVATIVE Christians all my life, and though frankly I don't much care for most conservative Baptist or, say, pentecostal/charismatic groups (or individuals for that matter), I have yet to run across a group "in real life" which embraces such hateful, weird behavior as the OP describes.

I do think that the "extremities" of any group - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, UU, environmental activists, atheists, communists, hell even the Amish - are not representative of the majority of that group. Even by those who espouse many of the same beliefs, they're considered weird at best and often actually dangerous.

Indeed. I always appreciate your posts, Kathryn.

Although I have run into individuals like the OP describes, I've not encountered a group. The extremists always draw the most attention, don't they?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
You can google them if you're really interested. If you care to take the small amount of time that requires, you'll see that they are politically active groups.

Google - it's so easy, even a caveman can do it!
Ok, I did. I didn't see any examples where those groups are "fighting fundamentalist Christianity" as you claimed. Your list of links is more of what we discussed earlier, i.e. no one is disputing that moderate Christians and groups exist. My point is that when it comes to the national dialog, they seem to be somewhat quiet and it's the crazies who seem to be speaking for Christianity.

BTW, since you're in Texas I'm sure you're aware of Pastor John Hagee and his batch of loonies? You doing anything to counteract them?

By the way, just how does one "ensure that fundies don't speak for Christianity?" How does anyone ensure that some other group doesn't grab the microphone and claim to speak for the people?
Well, that depends. If the crazy fundies really are quite numerous and not merely a fringe of Christianity as you're trying to make it, then probably not much; there's just too many of them. However, if they are actually only a fringe minority, then it should be trivially easy for the tens of millions of moderate-to-liberal Christians to drown them out.

Maybe they're on the other side of the table because they are diametrically opposed to whatever your various political goals are - I don't know, because I don't know much about you or your views. If you're expecting Christians as a whole to be supportive of abortion on demand or gay marriage, or whatever other cause you may pull out of your hat, you may be expecting too much. Sure you'll find many Christians that DO support those causes, but by and large the majority won't.
So the majority of Christians in America are anti-gay bigots? If so, that's consistent with the recent Barna Group survey. They found that 80% of youth who are reared in church leave the church, with one of the main reasons being Christianity's anti-gay attitudes. So again, perhaps the crazy and hate are more mainstream than you're willing to admit.

Now - if you're talking about whether or not tax dollars should support some goofy Christian theme park, you're much more likely to get more broad support from more Christians.
Really? That's going on right now and I have yet to see any sort of organized Christian effort to oppose AIG's Noah's Ark park. You stated yourself that you can't be bothered since it's not in your state.

But it sounds to me like you are basically pretty negative towards Christians and Christianity in general. If that's the case, then no wonder you get negative feedback and find Christians on the other side of the table. Sheeze.
Sure I get "negative feedback" from Christians when I express my views and opinions about their faith; I wouldn't expect anything else. But you're forgetting the point of this thread. Posing as a young Christian, I did nothing but express my "love for Christ" and such when in the midst of fundamentalists, and once their guard was down, the crazy and hate came out in buckets. So my attitude towards Christianity had no bearing on that at all.

My voting record. I could give more examples but frankly, I don't think I need to go on.
That's fine. Like I said, if you're ok with the crazies representing your faith, I am too.

Besides that, you don't play fair. You don't answer questions that I ask you. When you start doing that, I'll reciprocate.
What important questions have I ignored? My responses to you are pretty comprehensive and lengthy, so it could be that I've missed some things. If so, I apologize. Post them again and I'll do my best to answer.

That's your take, not mine. I rarely even listen to them. I pay more attention to people with more validity. I know who represents my beliefs and who doesn't.
Exactly...you're not really paying attention.

See - I KNEW you didn't know the difference between conservatives and fundamentalists!
Ok then, what's the difference?

I'll give you one example though, off the top of my head. Abba Fund doesn't fund adoptions to gay couples, or to my knowledge, single parents, and I disagree with that portion of their mission.
But according to what you said above, anti-gay bigotry is mainstream within Christianity. So again, perhaps parts of what I'm talking about are more mainstream that you care to admit.

People are free to do as they please when it comes to religion, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Let freedom ring! If people leave Christianity in droves, then that's their decision and their right, and I fully support their right to do so.
Interesting response. Do you believe Christianity is the only path to eternal salvation?

Yep, lots of goobers in politics. Biden and Palin spring immediately to mind.
So now the "goobers" are numerous? I thought your point was that Palin was far outside the norm and nobody really liked her?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I sometimes read various atheist boards out of curiosity, so I popped over to one to see what the top threads are, and under the theism board the top thread had an incredibly vile title berating Jesus. Many of the threads below it berated believers of all stripes in pretty much every way imaginable, and theists who post on those boards have a generally rough time of it. The attacks get very personal.

If I were to pose an an atheist, and then start having my doubts and making posts to suggest that just maybe atheism is wrong and perhaps I was going to join a church/mosque/temple whatever, I would bet the farm that there would be quick turnaround in attitude toward me (especially if the members detected a subterfuge). And I know that the punches are not pulled on those forums.

Some who are berated mercilessly on those boards are other atheists who suggest various ways of trying to get along with or find common ground with theists, or who say that atheists should not be as 'aggressive' and antagonistic toward theists, that such an approach is counterproductive. I see a lot of meanness (vile name calling often the least of it) on those boards, and they certainly are not a place where I would want to join or spend much time. They sound very similar to the OP description.

Is that where I should get my information about all atheists in general? The members there fit some stereotypes of atheists, and even some atheists I have met.

PS - I am not talking about Pharyngula, BTW. I like that blog, even if some of the comments by readers are extremist. :)
I definitely agree. I used to belong to a few atheist-type boards, and the dialog there in them was awful. In general, very angry, mean-spirited, and foul-mouthed.

But don't get the impression that I've formed some sort of universal opinion about fundamentalist Christians based on nothing more than a few internet boards. As I tried to convey in the OP and since (and perhaps poorly), I grew up around fundies, I know some fundies, I listen to Christian radio somewhat regularly (it's pretty hard to avoid around here), and I pay attention to fundamentalist Christian news outlets (e.g. WND, AFA). And to be honest, I don't see a whole lot of sanity, love, or even basic critical thinking in any of those places. Maybe I'm totally off base and fundamentalist Christians are generally quite different than those places portray. If so, I'd love to see some examples.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I my experience, fundamentalists are people who have a lot of pent up emotion about something and don't know how to release it in a healthy way. So they turn to the Bible and pull out all the rules, all the doctrines and dogmas that they can think of and start preaching as loud as they can. Anyone who goes against their beliefs is seen as someone hostile, not because they are against the beliefs, but because the person, through no fault of their own, isn't listening to what the fundamentalist really wants. The greater the pent up emotion, the greater the adherence to their ideals. Very rarely does anyone just pick up a set of values and starts to follow them with any sort of commitment unless they are emotionally involved in some way, shape or form.
That's fairly consistent with the literature on the psychology of fundamentalism. Stunted emotional development, need for strict authority, and black/white thinking are all things I observed multiple times over.
 
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