A Universe from Nothing?

[godnotgod]

Not what I have seen. It is more like random emission of your "material" dumped into threads, a new-age muddle of ideas from eastern religion and pseudo-science. Like I said, a real Zennie wouldn't touch this stuff with a bargepole.

There are treasures to be found in all teachings. Too bad you're still stuck in the stagnant backwaters of yours whose teaching is a sterile one. A real Zennie has an open mind to everything, and embraces everything.

 

[godnotgod]

Don't you realise how patronising and arrogant you sound when you make statements like this?

Not at all, since what we conceptualize about reality is not the way things actually are.

If you don't understand this, then you've wasted your 30 years on your mat.

The Heart Sutra is saying exactly that what we think is the case, is not actually the case.

Patronising and arrogance are only ideas in YOUR mind.

 

[godnotgod]

One can't even imagine,
what spills from 'nothing',
into most this thread !
~
'mud

Excellent, my good man, excellent!

14.
Look, it cannot be seen - it is beyond form.
Listen, it cannot be heard - it is beyond sound.
Grasp, it cannot be held - it is intangible.
These three are indefinable;
Therefore they are joined in one.
From above it is not bright;
From below it is not dark:
An unbroken thread beyond description.
It returns to nothingness.
The form of the formless,
The image of the imageless,
It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.
Stand before it and there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the ancient Tao,
Move with the present.
Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.

Tao te Ching

http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/laotzu.html#anchor_13472jj

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Too bad you're still stuck in the stagnant backwaters of yours whose teaching is a sterile one. A real Zennie has an open mind to everything, and embraces everything.

You are dogmatic and opinionated, and clearly NOT a real Zennie. You are just a preachy new-ager on an ego trip.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Not at all, since what we conceptualize about reality is not the way things actually are.
If you don't understand this, then you've wasted your 30 years on your mat.
The Heart Sutra is saying exactly that what we think is the case, is not actually the case.
Patronising and arrogance are only ideas in YOUR mind.

People here will form their own view about your arrogance, but I think it is an accurate observation.

You STILL haven't answered my question about the Heart Sutra. Do you claim it is compatible with your "Cosmic Consciousness?"

 

[Rick O'Shez]

One can't even imagine,
what spills from 'nothing',
into most this thread !
~
'mud

There is so much of it you need waders and a gas mask.

 

[godnotgod]

You are dogmatic and opinionated, and clearly NOT a real Zennie. You are just a preachy new-ager on an ego trip.

You already said that a zillion times. Are you done?

 

[godnotgod]

People here will form their own view about your arrogance, but I think it is an accurate observation.

You STILL haven't answered my question about the Heart Sutra. Do you claim it is compatible with your "Cosmic Consciousness?"

If you knew anything at all, you would see how ridiculous your question is.

BTW, where is the evidence of your claim that I claimed enlightenment? We're all still waiting. Nothing forthcoming? Then you lied, didn't you?

 

[godnotgod]

You are dogmatic and opinionated, and clearly NOT a real Zennie. You are just a preachy new-ager on an ego trip.

There is no such thing that is clear.

Look, just answer the last question I posed re: tree falling in forest. You ignore the real substance, and just want to continue with your silly tirade whose motive has become painfully obvious.

 

[godnotgod]

There is so much of it you need waders and a gas mask.

enough of you and your silly whining and selfish attempts to hijack this thread! back to the topic.

 

[godnotgod]

Not what I have seen. It is more like random emission of your "material" dumped into threads, a new-age muddle of ideas from eastern religion and pseudo-science. Like I said, a real Zennie wouldn't touch this stuff with a bargepole.

One-pointedness of mind in Zen does not refer to a multiplicity of ideas, but to focused concentration on any one thing at a time.

You are the one who is jumbling everything together to create a "muddle of ideas".

The problem with you is that you are still in the realm of duality, seeing only conflict, while failing to see the harmony between teachings, as I do.

What I have posted is not random, but very specific to the discussion at the time. Show me where you see such a 'random emission'. Again, you like to make things up to suit your strawman, as a means of smugly propping yourself up as an authority who has some 30 years of experience and blah blah blah, NONE OF WHICH MATTERS!

 

[godnotgod]

Who believes the universe has no beginning?

Fundamentally, for there to have been a beginning, a 'before' would have been the case, and Space-Time must already have been in place, but Space-Time is considered to have been created at the inception of the Big Bang, so the only logical conclusion is that the Universe emerged from a Timeless, Spaceless Nothing, since any 'something' as source would have necessitated Space-Time for its existence. This notion can especially be the case if what we call 'material' reality, is actually the result of Quantum fluctuations, where all of the mass of the Universe is virtual in nature. IOW, all 'material reality' is an illusion, and the only true Reality is That from which The Universe emerges.

"Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,

Nor the stand of a mirror bright.

Since all is empty from the beginning,

Where can the dust alight?"



Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch

http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Fundamentally, for there to have been a beginning, a 'before' would have been the case, and Space-Time must already have been in place, but Space-Time is considered to have been created at the inception of the Big Bang, so the only logical conclusion is that the Universe emerged from Nothing, since any 'something' as source would have necessitated Space-Time for its existence.

Sorry, the circular reasoning above is not logical and does not make sense.......the only question you need to answer is how can universal existence arise from non-existence?

 

[godnotgod]

Sorry, the circular reasoning above is not logical and does not make sense.......the only question you need to answer is how can universal existence arise from non-existence?

But that question, as I implied, is only valid if there was a 'something' that arose in the first place. If all material reality is, in fact, a Grand Illusion, a maya, then there really is nothing that can have arisen.

"The world is Brahman. If Brahman is limitless consciousness, without any particular
form, then how could it become this world of forms? It did not. Consciousness continues to be, without any change.

The gold has not become a chain. Only if it becomes a chain do I have to answer the question, “How did it become a chain?” Gold continues to be gold. Once you understand that clearly, then we can say Brahman has “become” the world through
maya!"

http://www.discovervedanta.com/downloads/articles/brahman-and-maya.pdf

It does not make sense that for a beginning to have occurred, there had to have been a 'before'?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But that question, as I implied, is only valid if there was a 'something' that arose in the first place. If all material reality is, in fact, a Grand Illusion, a maya, then there really is nothing that can have arisen.

"The world is Brahman. If Brahman is limitless consciousness, without any particular
form, then how could it become this world of forms? It did not. Consciousness continues to be, without any change.

The gold has not become a chain. Only if it becomes a chain do I have to answer the question, “How did it become a chain?” Gold continues to be gold. Once you understand that clearly, then we can say Brahman has “become” the world through
maya!"

http://www.discovervedanta.com/downloads/articles/brahman-and-maya.pdf

It does not make sense that for a beginning to have occurred, there had to have been a 'before'?

Ok....there was never an absolute nothing...back to the quiescent state..

 

[godnotgod]

Ok....there was never an absolute nothing...back to the quiescent state..

When was there ever a departure from it to begin with, and if there was, who, or what, is it that is returning? And then, who, or what, is it that knows there is a returning?

"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

 

[Ben Dhyan]

When was there ever a departure from it to begin with, and if there was, who, or what, is it that is returning? And then, who, or what, is it that knows there is a returning?

"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

There is the appearance of a coming and a going but never an actual arriving...for there was never a leaving to begin with...the timeless now!

God can only reveal God to God..

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I'm not sure if I can post a poll on here but who here believes that the universe originated from nothing? As some of the major scientific theories from the 20th century claimed or was there an originator of some sort? Doesn't have to be God necessarily in your opinion. Who believes the universe has no beginning? I'm just curious as to what you guys believe with regard to this topic and what the basis of your belief would be?

There is a major difference in believing that the universe was created out of nothing than believing that the universe had no beginning. For instance, adherents of the Abrahamic faiths generally believe that God created the universe out of nothing e.g. with no building materials. He simply "willed" it into existence. However, these same individuals clearly believe that the universe had a beginning. Ergo it is easily possible to believe in ex nihilo creation, yet believe the universe had a beginning.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I don’t have any specific belief about the origins of the Universe. More significantly, I don’t need any specific belief. How I believe it happened doesn’t really have any impact on my existence now. How it really happened probably doesn’t have much impact on my existence now and even less likely in a manner I have any kind of influence over.

I don’t think our mundane terminology is enough to explain the various concepts proposed in relation to how the Universe came to be. “Nothing” doesn’t really mean enough or explain exactly what kind of environment we could be discussing and if we’re talking about time as well, we really don’t have the language to easily discuss it (when phrases like “The beginning of time” crop up). Long and complex scientific papers are written to explain single elements of this whole that only a handful of other people can really get their heads around and half of them contradict each other.

It’s an interesting thing to speculate about but as far as actually studying, understanding and explaining the whole question, I’ve much better things to be spending my lifetime on.

Agreed.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is a major difference in believing that the universe was created out of nothing than believing that the universe had no beginning. For instance, adherents of the Abrahamic faiths generally believe that God created the universe out of nothing e.g. with no building materials. He simply "willed" it into existence. However, these same individuals clearly believe that the universe had a beginning. Ergo it is easily possible to believe in ex nihilo creation, yet believe the universe had a beginning.

But a belief in a human interpretation of sacred scripture does not mean it is a correct interpretation. The fact remains, God could not logically create the universe from nothing, ie.'no building material'... God could though create all forms anew from those which God has previously destroyed....and has done so without beginning or end eternally... For God is One and the apparent separate acts of creation is also the apparent act of destruction.....only the real is eternally unchanged...God.