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A Universe from Nothing?

Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Polymath257 said:
No. There is no 'then there is no time-space'. Without time, there is no 'then'. At any point where there is time, there is also space and matter/energy. There is no transition because there is nothing to transition to.
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This is weird....you are interpreting my language as if I am implying I understand you to be implying a nothing existing in time...I am categorically not. Please do not continue the pedantics and answer this question, what happens to the universe when time stops which eventually must happen if the universe is finite as you claim?
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Willamena said:
@Thief, the void is happening all around us, in each moment of conscious awareness. The void is here, now, not billions of years ago--it is what we are left with when, as a mental exercise, we subtract (eliminate) everything in the sphere of awareness and, by extension, everything that we could possibly be aware of (the whole world). It is Kant's "noumenon" and Spinoza's "external world," and what I think of primarily when I hear or read of Buddhism's "emptiness." And "void," too, is a metaphor, a placeholder for what is beyond our ability to know. The presence of the void isn't a non-existence before time, it's an epistemological myth. A myth is a narrative that explains, satisfies, and ultimately comforts the psyche regarding the world, especially regarding those things that are terrifying. Its use is in how it relates the person to the big picture. Everything in philosophy (and that includes science, religion, and politics) stems from one basic need: to satisfy and comfort ourselves regarding the ultimate in terrifying things, the non-existence that we call death. To that end, we create narratives. We tell ourselves, in a myriad of ways, that everything is alright: that an ordered and structured organization of society will provide for us; that the world is understandable, knowable, and solvable; that consciousness is not the end; that in eliminating the divide between conscious awareness and what lies beyond, a conscious mind is freed to be the world; and that salvation from death rests with the attainment of god/afterlife. These myths are a part of us, and pushing that void back to the start of time rather than the start of now (which is where it belongs) is unnecessary.
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more than your usual retort....thank you

void.....would be that existence .....unproven
kinda hard to say...I AM!...with NOTHING to affirm it

so Genesis uses the word ...void
and the word....firmament
and does so in a manner that only a few will 'see'

the first few verses of Genesis are a statement of existence....with God as the First

and yes....Someone had to be first

Creator...then His Word (universe)
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Polymath257 said:
No. There is no 'then there is no time-space'. Without time, there is no 'then'. At any point where there is time, there is also space and matter/energy. There is no transition because there is nothing to transition to.
Click to expand...
without movement ....there is no time
time is a measure of movement
nothing more
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
ben d said:
This is weird....you are interpreting my language as if I am implying I understand you to be implying a nothing existing in time...I am categorically not. Please do not continue the pedantics and answer this question, what happens to the universe when time stops which eventually must happen if the universe is finite as you claim?
Click to expand...

In those models where this happens, the universe goes through a contraction phase where the density increases. This produces a larger gravitational field which slows down and stops time. The time coordinate cannot be extended past that point.

An analogy is the north pole. There simply is no 'north of the north pole' because of the geometry and the way north is defined. In the same way, there is no 'before the Big Bang'.
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Polymath257 said:
In those models where this happens, the universe goes through a contraction phase where the density increases. This produces a larger gravitational field which slows down and stops time. The time coordinate cannot be extended past that point.

An analogy is the north pole. There simply is no 'north of the north pole' because of the geometry and the way north is defined. In the same way, there is no 'before the Big Bang'.
Click to expand...
I am not asking about before the big bang, I am asking about what happens to the mass of the universe when time ends? I am now getting that the the very dense singularity does not disappear...yes?
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
ben d said:
I am not asking about before the big bang, I am asking about what happens to the mass of the universe when time ends? I am now getting that the the very dense singularity does not disappear...yes?
Click to expand...

That very dense singularity is the end of time. There is no time after that, so no disappearing. To disappear, there would have to be one time where it exists and another time where it doesn't. That is not the case.

You are trying to get a violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy. But what, precisely, does that law say? It says that the total amount of mass/energy at any two times is the same. Without there being two times, there is no violation.

At the beginning, or at the end, time itself cannot be extended past the singularity. There is no time before the Big Bang or time after the end (if such happens). Again, in these models.
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Thief said:
more than your usual retort....thank you

void.....would be that existence .....unproven
kinda hard to say...I AM!...with NOTHING to affirm it

so Genesis uses the word ...void
and the word....firmament
and does so in a manner that only a few will 'see'

the first few verses of Genesis are a statement of existence....with God as the First

and yes....Someone had to be first

Creator...then His Word (universe)
Click to expand...
Something is first (superior) to the word-world that is "I am," every moment of every day. No beginning of the universe or causality fallacies required.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Willamena said:
Something is first (superior) to the word-world that is "I am," every moment of every day. No beginning of the universe or causality fallacies required.
Click to expand...
there is a beginning
it started with the pronunciation.....I AM!

I believe that statement to be synonymous to.....Let there be light!
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Polymath257 said:
That very dense singularity is the end of time. There is no time after that, so no disappearing. To disappear, there would have to be one time where it exists and another time where it doesn't. That is not the case.

You are trying to get a violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy. But what, precisely, does that law say? It says that the total amount of mass/energy at any two times is the same. Without there being two times, there is no violation.

At the beginning, or at the end, time itself cannot be extended past the singularity. There is no time before the Big Bang or time after the end (if such happens). Again, in these models.
Click to expand...
Let us find common ground on the understanding of the concept time. Existence continuing to exist is not time, time is temporal, existence is atemporal, meaning not temporary. Eternal is not in time, it is atemporal. Do you agree?
 
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