A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

Its not about a watch and measuring. Sure that cognitive tool exists but so does time as a force of some sort.

Its called fourth dimensional space.

I love the animation....but how does that prove time is an independent force?

 

[idav]

I love the animation....but how does that prove time is an independent force?

"In modern physics, space and time are unified in a four-dimensional Minkowski continuum called spacetime, whose metric treats the time dimension differently from the three spatial dimensions (see below for the definition of the Minkowski metric/pairing). Spacetime is not a Euclidean space."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"In modern physics, space and time are unified in a four-dimensional Minkowski continuum called spacetime, whose metric treats the time dimension differently from the three spatial dimensions (see below for the definition of the Minkowski metric/pairing). Spacetime is not a Euclidean space."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space

But it is still merely a mental construct....it doesn't represent an independent reality....it represents a measurement of observation or imagined movement...

 

[idav]

But it is still merely a mental construct....

It is a representation but it is a representation to an actual reality

it doesn't represent an independent reality....

Who said anything about it being independent reality

it represents a measurement of observation or imagined movement...

Rather a measurement of some thing observed or real movement beyond our 3 dimensional space

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is a representation but it is a representation to an actual reality

Who said anything about it being independent reality

Rather a measurement of some thing observed or real movement beyond our 3 dimensional space

You said it was a "force".....as such it must actually exist outside the mind...iow..a reality independent of the mind...

But 3 dimension space is also not real....there are no dimensions to space outside of a relative perspective of observation of a human being... All conceptual representations of reality are meant for human understanding...they have no reality outside of just being concepts....

 

[idav]

You said it was a "force".....as such it must actually exist outside the mind...iow..a reality independent of the mind...

But 3 dimension space is also not real....there are no dimensions to space outside of a relative perspective of observation of a human being... All conceptual representations of reality are meant for human understanding...they have no reality outside of just being concepts....

Reality is real without any need for human observation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Reality is real without any need for human observation.

True...but time does not exist as a reality outside the mind....reality is eternal ceaseless change....this is not time per se, just the never ending existence existing..

 

[idav]

True...but time does not exist as a reality outside the mind....reality is eternal ceaseless change....this is not time per se, just the never ending existence existing..

Gravity affects time so it is as real as physical nature. Endless ceaslessness is an aspect of the universe but we deal in matter and energy not space or time.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Gravity affects time so it is as real as physical nature. Endless ceaslessness is an aspect of the universe but we deal in matter and energy not space or time.

Yes, time as a measurement....but the fact that existence continues to exist does not imply a force....or another dimension....existence continues to exist because that is the nature of existence...it is real and stays real....what you see as time the mystic calls the eternal 'now'...

 

[idav]

what you see as time the mystic calls the eternal 'now'...

How do I see time? not linear I don't think...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How do I see time? not linear I don't think...

Do you see what I see? That people see the persistence of existence as a movement from the past tot the future...but nothing really is moving, just the human's mind way of dealing with the eternal now...it observes and continuously judges its perceptions that are continually being replaced with new ones....as the passing of time...but the nature of reality is eternal and there is no movement...it's only the perception of the mind..

 

[idav]

but nothing really is moving

eternity requires more movement and energy not less,

I see it assumed a lot of times that slowing down time means slowing of movement but thats not true

 

[Ben Dhyan]

eternity requires more movement and energy not less,

I see it assumed a lot of times that slowing down time means slowing of movement but thats not true

Eternity is merely ceaseless existence...there is no existence without movement....and no movement without existence...but the movement is not existence...and existence is not movement...

Time is a measurement or observation made by the human mind...whatever that measurement or observation is, it does not have any reality other than that of being conceptual...eternity is just the reality of existence..any and all abstractions from eternity as measurements of time are not real, but mental constructs..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Eternity is merely ceaseless existence...there is no existence without movement....and no movement without existence..
Time is a measurement or observation made by the human mind...whatever that measurement or observation is, it does not have any reality other than that of being conceptual...eternity is just the reality of existence...

You're contradicting yourself here. First you say there is no existence without movement, then you say in effect that observation of movement by the human mind has no reality. This doesn't make sense.

It would be much simpler and more accurate to say that we perceive movement.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You're contradicting yourself here. First you say there is no existence without movement, then you say in effect that observation of movement by the human mind has no reality. This doesn't make sense.

It would be much simpler and more accurate to say that we perceive movement.

I specified "Time" as the context of measurement or observation....non judgemental observation of movement or stillness of our environment is mindfulness...make some measurement or judgment about it though and we get conceptualization and separation...duality..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I specified "Time" as the context of measurement or observation....non judgemental observation of movement or stillness of our environment is mindfulness...make some measurement or judgment about it though and we get conceptualization and separation...duality..

But what about clocks? You can look at a clock without judgement, and there it is, ticking away the seconds.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But what about clocks? You can look at a clock without judgement, and there it is, ticking away the seconds.

Yeah....well I suppose so long as you don't count the tick tocks to calculate the time, it is still mindfulness.....

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yeah....well I suppose so long as you don't count the tick tocks to calculate the time, it is still mindfulness.....

Mindfulness is just paying attention to experience, and might well include clock-watching.

I would also advise caution in assuming that an inner experience of timelessness or stillness has any correlation with the world "out there".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Mindfulness is just paying attention to experience, and might well include clock-watching.

I would also advise caution in assuming that an inner experience of timelessness or stillness has any correlation with the world "out there".

Ok so after 9 years of study, you know what mindfulness is....I must say Thich Nhat Hanh is a remarkable teacher...but much to Earthy for my likes...a social activist...

Where is it that I have assumed an inner experience has correlation with the the world "out there"? ....my talk of the tick tock of the clock was meant as a joke... Mind you...fwiw...an inner experience can have correlation with the world...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Ok so after 9 years of study, you know what mindfulness is....

Eh? Mindfulness been my main PRACTICE for many years, in different schools, so I am talking from solid practical experience.

One of the problems with a syncretic approach is ending up as a jack of all trades and master of none.