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A Universe from Nothing?

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You haven't answer my questions.

You say time is mental construct and not real, because you wrote these inane questions:


You always believed that "eternity" is real, not "time". So I am switching your questions to ask you these:

  1. What is eternity?
  2. Can you take picture of eternity?
  3. Can you weigh eternity?
  4. Can you touch eternity?
  5. What substance is eternity made of?
  6. Does eternity exist out of mind?
Come on, man. Answer these questions.

And here is one last question about "eternity" for you to answer:

Why is eternity real, if time isn't?​

You are a genius in English. You keep telling me I am illiterate, then why won't you bloody answer my questions? You keep telling me you are smarter than me, then you explain me to questions about "eternity". Why do you keep evading like a dishonest politician?
Again you become so incoherent in your rambling post, It become difficult for me to respond in any meaningful way. I don't intend to discuss absurd propositions about the reality represented by the concept of eternity.

What I have explained on numerous occasions, is that 'reality' is forever on the other side of concepts, not just concepts such as time and eternity, but all concepts. So once you understand this, we can try and understand what is the reality represented by the concepts of time and eternity. Now understanding that we as mortals must use a dualistic mindset to communicate with each other, if we sincerely want to understand what the other means, we must agree what the terms we use mean.

So to start, here is a explanation of the reality represented by the concept of 'time'...time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future. It is not the only way to explain it but this is one I do not have a problem with, do you?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So to start, here is a explanation of the reality represented by the concept of 'time'...time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future. It is not the only way to explain it but this is one I do not have a problem with, do you?
I am not asking to explain "time". And I have no problem with "time", in fact I have been stating that time is real.

The questions I have used are for you to explain to me about "eternity", as to why you think eternity is real, but not time?

Is eternity not a man-made construct?

If you would stop attacking my English, and just focus on the questions I have asked, then we can move forward.
 

Regolith Based Lifeforms

Early Earth Was Not Sterile
Again you become so incoherent in your rambling post, It become difficult for me to respond in any meaningful way. I don't intend to discuss absurd propositions about the reality represented by the concept of eternity.

What I have explained on numerous occasions, is that 'reality' is forever on the other side of concepts, not just concepts such as time and eternity, but all concepts. So once you understand this, we can try and understand what is the reality represented by the concepts of time and eternity. Now understanding that we as mortals must use a dualistic mindset to communicate with each other, if we sincerely want to understand what the other means, we must agree what the terms we use mean.

So to start, here is a explanation of the reality represented by the concept of 'time'...time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future. It is not the only way to explain it but this is one I do not have a problem with, do you?
TROLL
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I am not asking to explain "time". And I have no problem with "time", in fact I have been stating that time is real.

The questions I have used are for you to explain to me about "eternity", as to why you think eternity is real, but not time?

Is eternity not a man-made construct?

If you would stop attacking my English, and just focus on the questions I have asked, then we can move forward.
Watch and learn, in my post to you I said that I agreed with the explanation of the concept of time...."time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.", and now in response you ignore my position and claim that I do not think time is real? :rolleyes: Now you either do not understand what is being said, or you think it is ok to be purposely obtuse, either way, there can't be a reasonable discussion until you correct these dificiencies.

In the sense of what my understanding of eternity is in the context of time, it can be considered endless time.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You responded to my post to gnostic, not to yourself. Now fyi, it is considered very bad form to respond in the manner you have in a debate or discussion on this forum, so please try to be more mature when your belief system is threatened.

I look forward to your considered response to my last post to you, if you feel up to it.. :)
 

Regolith Based Lifeforms

Early Earth Was Not Sterile
You responded to my post to gnostic, not to yourself. Now fyi, it is considered very bad form to respond in the manner you have in a debate or discussion on this forum, so please try to be more mature when your belief system is threatened.

I look forward to your considered response to my last post to you, if you feel up to it.. :)
Everyone gets the same accusation from you, so you're going to get the same response from me when i come around to see what's new. All i know is that a guy that denies the existence of time will make up his own time at the expense of everyone around him. Denialism is a game people play when excuses for bad behavior fail. It's the ultimate form of lying and progresses to becoming a cancer on society like fascism. In fact, fascism thrives when denial is tolerated, then accepted as the rule of conduct by a majority. You told Polymath that time is a mental construct and everyone knows that is a way of saying it's all in your head which does 2 things.
1. Invalidation of the person you're addressing.
2. Blaming the person for your shortcomings.

Even in an eternal universe, time exists if any physical processes are occurring, as they are not occurring instantaneously and so far as we know, nothing has been observed that even slightly appears to have existed for eternity.
IF the WORST should befall cosmology and astronomy and we find out we were wrong about the Big Bang by seeing our error and we find out the universe has no edges and no discernible beginning and is NOT expanding, we will continue to see the gradual progression of physical processes and we will also observe oscillations and cycles in nature around us that are so regular, that they can be used to mark the progression of a process by reliably equal increments, whether it be the day/night cycle, Earth's orbit around the sun, the hum of a distant pulsar or the tiny vibration of a quartz crystal in a battery powered watch. It's by the gradual progression of events, rather than instantaneous appearances of objects and processes that we know time exists. We also know time exists by the fact that many observed processes are irreversible. Causality is another evidence that time exists
Now if that is as incoherent to you as your previous accusations suggest, then i have no further need to say anything else to you.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Deniers ALWAYS hurt others in order to just live WHEN they want to instead of being FORCED to live when as AS the rest of us do. WE WORK our tails off ON TIME every day so you can play at being a threat to the rest of us. Denial = Threat to society.

You posted a perfect characterization of Donald Trump. Let the truth be told :)-
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Everyone gets the same accusation from you, so you're going to get the same response from me when i come around to see what's new. All i know is that a guy that denies the existence of time will make up his own time at the expense of everyone around him. Denialism is a game people play when excuses for bad behavior fail. It's the ultimate form of lying and progresses to becoming a cancer on society like fascism. In fact, fascism thrives when denial is tolerated, then accepted as the rule of conduct by a majority. You told Polymath that time is a mental construct and everyone knows that is a way of saying it's all in your head which does 2 things.
1. Invalidation of the person you're addressing.
2. Blaming the person for your shortcomings.

Even in an eternal universe, time exists if any physical processes are occurring, as they are not occurring instantaneously and so far as we know, nothing has been observed that even slightly appears to have existed for eternity.
IF the WORST should befall cosmology and astronomy and we find out we were wrong about the Big Bang by seeing our error and we find out the universe has no edges and no discernible beginning and is NOT expanding, we will continue to see the gradual progression of physical processes and we will also observe oscillations and cycles in nature around us that are so regular, that they can be used to mark the progression of a process by reliably equal increments, whether it be the day/night cycle, Earth's orbit around the sun, the hum of a distant pulsar or the tiny vibration of a quartz crystal in a battery powered watch. It's by the gradual progression of events, rather than instantaneous appearances of objects and processes that we know time exists. We also know time exists by the fact that many observed processes are irreversible. Causality is another evidence that time exists
Now if that is as incoherent to you as your previous accusations suggest, then i have no further need to say anything else to you.
Why is it that you write and post in a manner consistent with gnostic in that you make false claims, and then when you are politely asked to show me where I had supposedly made the claim, you totally ignore the point and go into a ad hom rant? You have now added another false claim that I call you on, so in order to show you your reading comprehension is practically zero, try your very best to show this forum where it is you believe I have said or implied duration of an event is 0. And now you are claiming that I deny the existence of time, when in recent posts I have spelled it for you, I agree with this definition of the reality representing the concept of time....time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

Now please refrain from any irrelevant rant and merely reply to the point of my posts to provide the evidence of your claims. This is the only way a reasonable exchange can take place, so long as you and gnostic are both going on about things I did not say, it is impossible for me to say anything except...show me where I said it?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Real life is incoherent and bizzare to people who either don't work or who don't know science. Real life is the very most bizarre to the worst delusional deniers of FACTS. People who DO work, but deny facts and science are accident prone and generally incompetent, therefore a liability on most job sites.
Everyone in internet forum debates on science, religion and reality tend to speak in lofty generalized terms, but i bring my knowledge of science and my use of facts down to REAL LIFE, like on my job and in all of life where consequences are real.
Then i bring that same reality to internet forms so kooks and crackpots can't have as much fun without some consequences to go with it.
In other words, I'm a "kill-joy".
NO MORE having fun.
Time EXISTS.
DEAL with it.

I had the "time" argument with him a few weeks ago, basically he denied any scientific fact i put to him, including the most important, 2nd law of thermodynamics had any relationship to time. After that i just shrugged my shoulders and said **** him, he's just a waste of time
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I had the "time" argument with him a few weeks ago, basically he denied any scientific fact i put to him, including the most important, 2nd law of thermodynamics had any relationship to time. After that i just shrugged my shoulders and said **** him, he's just a waste of time
Ok Christine, lets see who is being logical, reasonable, and scientific here? That means addressing the point, no irrelevant diversions and ad hom rants!

First thing we must agree on is the definition of time, this one I can work with....'time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future', do you accept?.....Time - Wikipedia
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Ok Christine, lets see who is being logical, reasonable, and scientific here? That means addressing the point, no irrelevant diversions and ad hom rants!

First thing we must agree on is the definition of time, this one I can work with....'time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future', do you accept?.....Time - Wikipedia

Why are you making rules when entropy is already defined.

P.s. i would not accept a Wikipedia article on a fundamental scientific property.

For one, entropy is far from indefinite
For two, the effect of entropy not reversible so apparently is a pretty good indicator of the scientific ability of the many various authors
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Why are you making rules when entropy is already defined.

P.s. i would not accept a Wikipedia article on a fundamental scientific property.

For one, entropy is far from indefinite
For two, the effect of entropy not reversible so apparently is a pretty good indicator of the scientific ability of the many various authors
Haha... I never mentioned entropy, I mentioned time, who is making up the rules, talk about cognitive dissonance? Fyi, the reality represented by the concept of entropy is entirely different to that represented by 'time'. If you disagree, please provide your evidence of a definition of entropy as being the same as time?

Ok then, please provide your logical reason for not accepting the wiki definition of time, what is in error?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
"time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.", and now in response you ignore my position and claim that I do not think time is real? :rolleyes: Now you either do not understand what is being said, or you think it is ok to be purposely obtuse, either way, there can't be a reasonable discussion until you correct these dificiencies.

In the sense of what my understanding of eternity is in the context of time, it can be considered endless time.

Actually in the past posts, you've frequently contradict yourself.

One moment you would claim that eternity is "indefinite" (like above, in the 1st line), and in the next moment you claimed that eternity is "timelessness".

You are the genius with English - or so you've claimed - and yet you muddle "indefinite" and '"timelessness" as if they were one and same, when they actually have different meanings.

In one of your older post, you wrote:

I gave you the logical reason why eternity can not be measured by time, time is finite and the other infinite, for that reason, eternity is beyond time, it is timeless in itself.

Think about it...give me an example of time that has no beginning?

Give up...right, time must have a beginning because it is a finite concept. Timelessness otoh is a concept that implies a no beginning of time. If there is no beginning of time, then time does not arise ever...yes? Time can only come into existence if there was a beginning, and there are plenty of examples of that in the physical world of forms, but as to the universe itself, it never had a beginning and thus is timeless in itself, for it is eternal.

The word, "indefinite". Indefinite doesn't mean "timeless" or "timelessness", and though eternity can be indefinite, that's only if you only imply, so it really depends on usage. Time being indefinite doesn't necessarily or explicitly mean "eternity".

Here is the definition for indefinite:

indefinite adjective (Oxford dictionary)
1 Lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.
2 Not clearly expressed or defined; vague.

That's not what timelessness mean:

timeless adjective (Oxford dictionary)
Not affected by the passage of time or changes in fashion.


And you frequently state time is mere mental construct, without any basis of reality other than that of mental construct:

Spacetime is a mental construct used in some models of the universe, but there is no proof that spacetime exists as something real as space is real, or matter is real.

But it is still merely a mental construct....it doesn't represent an independent reality....it represents a measurement of observation or imagined movement...

Well since time is not a mass or energy, it has no reality other than that being merely a concept of the mind, a mental construct. What is called a clock is a calibrated instrument designed to count cycles, whether it be a pendulum or electronic oscillation. The clock then is used to count the cycles and divide them into period of seconds, minutes, hours, etc.. These periods are then called time and can be used to measure the cycles of the rotation of the earth, the orbit of the earth around the sun, etc.. None of this indicates the reality represented by the concept of time is anything more than a human mental construct, which is all I m saying.

Then what causes the the earth to orbit the sun if not some force in action, or what causes the pendulum to sing to and fro if not a force, or what causes the oscillation of an electronic circuit if not a force?

Time as a formula is correct, that is all it is, a mental construct.

No one states "time" is "mass" or "energy", but without time, it would not be possible to measure possible to measure motion of any body (object) such as velocity, acceleration, gravity, nor would you be able to measure force, energy or field (e.g. gravitational, electromagnetic).

In the above quote, you say what caused the Earth's motion, such as its rotational motion and its orbital motion around the Sun.

The masses of two bodies, the Earth and Sun, caused the motion, because both have gravitational fields, which both would generate force to cause motion of the bodies, therefore gravity of two objects are only possible if there were acceleration.

You can only measure velocity and acceleration, if you can measure or calculate time.

Time is therefore part of reality, and not merely mental construct.

Time is fact, because it can be measured.

You ask what cause motion of the pendulum in a clock to swing. You say "force", but where does "force" come from, if not from the "mass" of pendulum and "mass" of the Earth. As the mass of Earth generate gravitational field, therefore it cause the pendulum to pull downwards (attraction to the Earth's field, gravity), which is the "force" you are talking about.

It is the gravitational field of one mass of body (i.e. Earth) that produces the force on another mass of another body (i.e. pendulum), and that's what caused the motion. And you cannot know what the forces and field are unless you know the time.

But the Earth-and-pendulum example is applied only using Newton's law of universal gravitation.

The gravitational field in General Relativity (GR) applied to astronomical bodies, where the fields are represented as the curvature of spacetime, and that involved Einstein's field equations. Again time is a factor. The main difference between Newton's and Einstein's field is that GR can be verified through the bending of light in the gravitational fields.

In any case, if time can be measure or calculated, then it is part of reality.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I never mentioned entropy, I mentioned time, who is making up the rules, talk about cognitive dissonance? Fyi, the reality represented by the concept of entropy is entirely different to that represented by 'time'. If you disagree, please provide your evidence of a definition of entropy as being the same as time?
But time is a factor, when it come to entropy, especially when there are changes in entropy.

In the closed or isolated system, entropy can only increase, but not decease with time, but the reverse is possible in the open system, where entropy decrease with time.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Actually in the past posts, you've frequently contradict yourself.

One moment you would claim that eternity is "indefinite" (like above, in the 1st line), and in the next moment you claimed that eternity is "timelessness".

You are the genius with English - or so you've claimed - and yet you muddle "indefinite" and '"timelessness" as if they were one and same, when they actually have different meanings.

In one of your older post, you wrote:



The word, "indefinite". Indefinite doesn't mean "timeless" or "timelessness", and though eternity can be indefinite, that's only if you only imply, so it really depends on usage. Time being indefinite doesn't necessarily or explicitly mean "eternity".

Here is the definition for indefinite:

indefinite adjective (Oxford dictionary)
1 Lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.
2 Not clearly expressed or defined; vague.

That's not what timelessness mean:

timeless adjective (Oxford dictionary)
Not affected by the passage of time or changes in fashion.


And you frequently state time is mere mental construct, without any basis of reality other than that of mental construct:







No one states "time" is "mass" or "energy", but without time, it would not be possible to measure possible to measure motion of any body (object) such as velocity, acceleration, gravity, nor would you be able to measure force, energy or field (e.g. gravitational, electromagnetic).

In the above quote, you say what caused the Earth's motion, such as its rotational motion and its orbital motion around the Sun.

The masses of two bodies, the Earth and Sun, caused the motion, because both have gravitational fields, which both would generate force to cause motion of the bodies, therefore gravity of two objects are only possible if there were acceleration.

You can only measure velocity and acceleration, if you can measure or calculate time.

Time is therefore part of reality, and not merely mental construct.

Time is fact, because it can be measured.

You ask what cause motion of the pendulum in a clock to swing. You say "force", but where does "force" come from, if not from the "mass" of pendulum and "mass" of the Earth. As the mass of Earth generate gravitational field, therefore it cause the pendulum to pull downwards (attraction to the Earth's field, gravity), which is the "force" you are talking about.

It is the gravitational field of one mass of body (i.e. Earth) that produces the force on another mass of another body (i.e. pendulum), and that's what caused the motion. And you cannot know what the forces and field are unless you know the time.

But the Earth-and-pendulum example is applied only using Newton's law of universal gravitation.

The gravitational field in General Relativity (GR) applied to astronomical bodies, where the fields are represented as the curvature of spacetime, and that involved Einstein's field equations. Again time is a factor. The main difference between Newton's and Einstein's field is that GR can be verified through the bending of light in the gravitational fields.

In any case, if time can be measure or calculated, then it is part of reality.
The word 'indefinite' comes from the definition from the Wiki page on 'Time' which I provided a link to, it was not I who claimed anything about what the word means. All you have to do at this stage is agree or not agree that the definition is a fair explanation. If you do not accept the definition of 'time' as published, then please explain what it is that you disagree with, and we can have a meaningful debate, not before.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
But time is a factor, when it come to entropy, especially when there are changes in entropy.

In the closed or isolated system, entropy can only increase, but not decease with time, but the reverse is possible in the open system, where entropy decrease with time.
I will say it again....the reality represented by the concept of time is not the reality represented by the concept of entropy, if you disagree, please explain why you think they are the same?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Haha... I never mentioned entropy, I mentioned time, who is making up the rules, talk about cognitive dissonance? Fyi, the reality represented by the concept of entropy is entirely different to that represented by 'time'. If you disagree, please provide your evidence of a definition of entropy as being the same as time?

Ok then, please provide your logical reason for not accepting the wiki definition of time, what is in error?

Well there is your error right there, entropy is a measure of time.

I have previously provided evidence with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I'm not going to repeat because you refuse to accept it.

Already done that too, as you are completely aware, i will add that the piece you cited has been anonymously edited over 1000 times in the last 5 years.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Well there is your error right there, entropy is a measure of time.

I have previously provided evidence with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I'm not going to repeat because you refuse to accept it.

Already done that too, as you are completely aware, i will add that the piece you cited has been anonymously edited over 1000 times in the last 5 years.
Most readers here know what entropy is, most readers here know what the second law of thermodynamics is, if not they can easily look up the definitions, neither of them are similar to the definition of time. Just because some cosmic process involves change over 'time' does not mean it is the same thing as time. So please, no more about entropy, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or any other cosmic processes or events of which, 'time' is a factor, just stick to the concept of time itself.

Having got that out of the way, if you want to discuss the reality represented by the concept of time, please provide a definition for my consideration or correct the one I provided. Regardless of where the one I provided came from, or how it evolved, is not the point, I consider it a good definition and am sticking with it for now....time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Most readers here know what entropy is, most readers here know what the second law of thermodynamics is, if not they can look up the definitions, neither equate them with time. Just because some cosmic process involves change over 'time' does not mean it is the same thing as time. So please, no more about entropy, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or any other cosmic processes or events of which, 'time' is a factor, just stick to the concept of time itself.

Having got that out of the way, if you want to discuss the reality represented by the concept of time, please provide a definition for my consideration or correct the one I provided. Regardless of where the one I provided came from, or how it evolved, is not the point, I consider it a good definition and am sticking with it for now....time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

You misunderstanding, or deliberate ignorance over the nature of entropy is your second stumbling block, your first is your insistence that you are privy to events prior to 13.8 billion years ago. The fact that you cant have the second without denying the first flavours your dogmatic arguments.

Seems you don't want to discuss the nature of time if it contradicts your delusion of time, fair enough.

No more to be said here if you are unwilling to entertain the fundamental aspect of time in our universe.

The point is you used an anonymous, unverified, unscientific citation. Its rather laughable really that you consider such to be good.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You misunderstanding, or deliberate ignorance over the nature of entropy is your second stumbling block, your first is your insistence that you are privy to events prior to 13.8 billion years ago. The fact that you cant have the second without denying the first flavours your dogmatic arguments.

Seems you don't want to discuss the nature of time if it contradicts your delusion of time, fair enough.

No more to be said here if you are unwilling to entertain the fundamental aspect of time in our universe.

The point is you used an anonymous, unverified, unscientific citation. Its rather laughable really that you consider such to be good.
But I did not raise the concept of 'entropy', you did, as a definition of what time is in your post #3854

So let's be clear, time is not entropy, radioactive decay, oxidation, big bang theory, etc., etc., time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

How is it logical or reasonable for you to equate the reality defined by time as that defined by the 2nd law of thermodynamics and entropy?

I don't mind that you raise the subject of entropy as an example for which 'time' is a factor in the explanation thereof, but first of all we must agree on a definition of time, do you understand? Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future. Do you agree or not, if not please explain your reason?
 
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