A Universe from Nothing?

[gnostic]

And then you go off on a misunderstanding of the precise words that you quoted, for if you go back and read the quote again, it says..."like Christine and others who believe there was probably nothing in existence before the universe." Now in English, the word 'probably' does not denote a positive, it mean a possibility. So you see, my statement was not a lie, it was Christine who claimed it was.

And you don't know what you are talking about, Ben.

In some cases, probability and possibility can match up together, be aligned, but they are different when it comes to physical science and mathematics.

Probability is the ability to predict probable future outcomes, through the use of statistics. Possibility don't.

If, for example, a basketball player practising his free-throw shots, score 9 out of 10 on Monday, 9/10 on Tuesday, 10/10 on Wednesday, 8//10 on Thursday, and 9/10 on Friday, then on the day of Saturday match, there is high probability that he might score ratio of 9 out of 10 if he was standing behind the free-throw line.

So there are very low probability for this player missing all his shots on the big day.

Using statistics, it is possible to predict "what is probable" and "what isn't probable". And for you know one way or another, is to have real data to work with.

Possibility (and its opposite, "impossibility") don't require or don't use statistics and probability.

And you don't have any usable data to predict your eternal universe, nor do Thief's meaningless and nonexistence spirit. All of it, is based on blind faith.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Actually thief knows nothing; he believe what he what believe without any verifiable evidences; that's called faith. Both faith and belief together are nothing more than very subjective opinion, and opinions that are devoid of all logic.

Knowing and believing are two different things.

That thief keep refusing to answer very legitimate and reasonable questions, with stalling and evasive tactics, only demonstrated his lack of integrity on the matters.

Your own belief in the eternal universe, also has no evidences, based on belief and faith, which are no better than thief's claim. Belief without evidences are merely faith.

Both of you only have faith, and blind ones at that.

Don't bring me into it, I have no belief or faith in the possibility of a universe coming from nothing, it is only you, Thief, Christine, Polymath, and others who believe it may be possible.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And you don't know what you are talking about, Ben.

In some cases, probability and possibility can match up together, be aligned, but they are different when it comes to physical science and mathematics.

Probability is the ability to predict probable future outcomes, through the use of statistics. Possibility don't.

If, for example, a basketball player practising his free-throw shots, score 9 out of 10 on Monday, 9/10 on Tuesday, 10/10 on Wednesday, 8//10 on Thursday, and 9/10 on Friday, then on the day of Saturday match, there is high probability that he might score ratio of 9 out of 10 if he was standing behind the free-throw line.

So there are very low probability for this player missing all his shots on the big day.

Using statistics, it is possible to predict "what is probable" and "what isn't probable". And for you know one way or another, is to have real data to work with.

Possibility (and its opposite, "impossibility") don't require or don't use statistics and probability.

And you don't have any usable data to predict your eternal universe, nor do Thief's meaningless and nonexistence spirit. All of it, is based on blind faith.

Look up your dictionary again, what you've posted is so incoherent and out of context that it is highly improbable for anyone to make sense of it, impossible perhaps even.

I have all the data in the world that the universe is eternal, the universe itself, it exists and there is no evidence that it came from nothing.

 

[gnostic]

Don't bring me into it, I have no belief or faith in the possibility of a universe coming from nothing, it is only you, Thief, Christine, Polymath, and others who believe it may be a possibility.

You keep misunderstanding me. And you have misunderstood both of my posts.

I have never said that I believe in a universe coming from nothing.

Are you so blind that you cannot even comprehend what you are reading?

I have stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCES to point to a universe coming from nothing, and I stated that it is highly unlikely.

I have also stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE to point to an eternal universe.

I am engineer, not a theoretical physicist, so I preferred evidences over maths, and neither nothingness, nor eternity have solid foundation to reality.

As to Thief's absurd God did it, or worse, his baseless and incoherent Spirit, there is nothing but just pure BS.

Edit:

But what is really disturbing, is that you keeping using STRAW MAN, accusing me of supporting a Universe from Nothing, when I actually post the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are st####.

 

[ChristineM]

You claim I lie yet in the next sentence admit to a belief in the possibility of s universe from nothing. A mathematical model of a hypothetical nothing is not proof of a real nothing, the total absence of evidence of a real nothing is where the science is at.

Yes you saw and even comprehend (i assume) the word possibility, you even quoted the word.

Understanding of a possibility is not belief in.

I am afraid you have not been reading (or deliberately misrepresenting) my posts and quantum science.

You mean like the total absence of evidence for god?

Actually partial evidence of a universe from nothing exists in the quantum world, vacuum bubbles and matter popping into existence from nothing is a well established fact, you ignore this. And despite your foot stomping, there is no reason in science to discount the possibility

 

[ChristineM]

You keep misunderstanding me. And you have misunderstood both of my posts.

I have never said that I believe in a universe coming from nothing.

Are you so blind that you cannot even comprehend what you are reading?

I have stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCES to point to a universe coming from nothing, and I stated that it is highly unlikely.

I have also stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE to point to an eternal universe.

I am engineer, not a theoretical physicist, so I preferred evidences over maths, and neither nothingness, nor eternity have solid foundation to reality.

As to Thief's absurd God did it, or worse, his baseless and incoherent Spirit, there is nothing but just pure BS.

Edit:

But what is really disturbing, is that you keeping using STRAW MAN, accusing me of supporting a Universe from Nothing, when I actually post the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are st####.

I believe the only way ben can justify his incredulity is by deliberately misrepresenting those who disagree with his woo

 

[ChristineM]

You keep misunderstanding me. And you have misunderstood both of my posts.

I have never said that I believe in a universe coming from nothing.

Are you so blind that you cannot even comprehend what you are reading?

I have stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCES to point to a universe coming from nothing, and I stated that it is highly unlikely.

I have also stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE to point to an eternal universe.

I am engineer, not a theoretical physicist, so I preferred evidences over maths, and neither nothingness, nor eternity have solid foundation to reality.

As to Thief's absurd God did it, or worse, his baseless and incoherent Spirit, there is nothing but just pure BS.

Edit:

But what is really disturbing, is that you keeping using STRAW MAN, accusing me of supporting a Universe from Nothing, when I actually post the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are st####.

This may interest you

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

A pdf download of the paper is available top right of the screen

I find arxiv a wonderful source. arXiv.org e-Print archive

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You keep misunderstanding me. And you have misunderstood both of my posts.

I have never said that I believe in a universe coming from nothing.

Are you so blind that you cannot even comprehend what you are reading?

I have stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCES to point to a universe coming from nothing, and I stated that it is highly unlikely.

I have also stated that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE to point to an eternal universe.

I am engineer, not a theoretical physicist, so I preferred evidences over maths, and neither nothingness, nor eternity have solid foundation to reality.

As to Thief's absurd God did it, or worse, his baseless and incoherent Spirit, there is nothing but just pure BS.

Edit:

But what is really disturbing, is that you keeping using STRAW MAN, accusing me of supporting a Universe from Nothing, when I actually post the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are st####.

I do not misunderstand you, believing it is highly unlikely still leaves the implication of the possibility, Thief is also implying the possibility according to his belief. The question of God being the cause or an unknown yet cause is irrelevant to what i am bringing to your attention.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes you saw and even comprehend (i assume) the word possibility, you even quoted the word.

Understanding of a possibility is not belief in.

I am afraid you have not been reading (or deliberately misrepresenting) my posts and quantum science.

You mean like the total absence of evidence for god?

Actually partial evidence of a universe from nothing exists in the quantum world, vacuum bubbles and matter popping into existence from nothing is a well established fact, you ignore this. And despite your foot stomping, there is no reason in science to discount the possibility

Haha...so make up your mind, do you believe in the possibility of a universe from nothing or do you not believe in the possibility?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I believe the only way ben can justify his incredulity is by deliberately misrepresenting those who disagree with his woo

The only woo that we are talking about is this....

"Wth the new mathematics that marries quantum theories and classical physics along with the recent detection of gravitational waves make the theory of a universe from nothing a more attractive idea." Post #3653

 

[gnostic]

I do not misunderstand you, believing it is highly unlikely still leaves the implication of the possibility, Thief is also implying the possibility according to his belief. The question of God being the cause or an unknown yet cause is irrelevant to what i am bringing to your attention.

If that's the case, then why do you keep using straw man.

I have told you repeatedly that I don't accept universe from nothing, because there are not enough evidences to indicate it. And yet you keep bringing it up as if I do accept it.

Can you do something for me, ben?

I would ask you not to presume what you think or believe I "do" or "don't" accept...unless I explicitly express my view of it one or way on the matter, to avoid pointlessly argue over matters that's not my view.

I would do the same for you. Do you agree?

 

[Thief]

This may interest you

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

A pdf download of the paper is available top right of the screen

I find arxiv a wonderful source. arXiv.org e-Print archive

I like how it starts out......line one....
An interesting idea is that the universe could be spontaneously created from nothing, but no rigorous proof has been given.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Do you really think he wishes another poster to die, that's a serious accusation?

Now that i'm looking back at it, looks like Polymath jumped in the middle of a morbid post which was not addressed to any particular poster. I should be careful not to step in those.

 

[ChristineM]

Haha...so make up your mind, do you believe in the possibility of a universe from nothing or do you not believe in the possibility?

Of course i believe in the possibility. POSSIBILITY

That does not mean i believe that's what happened, it means i believe, given the available information that it is a possibility.

 

[ChristineM]

I like how it starts out......line one....
An interesting idea is that the universe could be spontaneously created from nothing, but no rigorous proof has been given.

As usual you read what you want then ignored the point of the paper. Let me continue where you bottled out...

"In this paper, we present such a proof based on the analytic solutions of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). Explicit solutions of the WDWE for the special operator ordering factor p=-2 (or 4) show that, once a small true vacuum bubble is created by quantum fluctuations of the metastable false vacuum, it can expand exponentially no matter whether the bubble is closed, flat or open. "

 

[ChristineM]

The only woo that we are talking about is this....

"Wth the new mathematics that marries quantum theories and classical physics along with the recent detection of gravitational waves make the theory of a universe from nothing a more attractive idea." Post #3653

No woo in that,

Param Singh and others have developed such mathematics

Gravitational waves have been detected by equipment in China and the USA.

Pity you refuse to keep up with scientific advances while you insist on pontificating about your dreams that you imply are the font of all knowledge

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If that's the case, then why do you keep using straw man.

I have told you repeatedly that I don't accept universe from nothing, because there are not enough evidences to indicate it. And yet you keep bringing it up as if I do accept it.

Can you do something for me, ben?

I would ask you not to presume what you think or believe I "do" or "don't" accept...unless I explicitly express my view of it one or way on the matter, to avoid pointlessly argue over matters that's not my view.

I would do the same for you. Do you agree?

I understand that you claim you don't think a universe from nothing because there is not enough evidence, but I also understand that you do not rule out the possibility, is my understanding correct?

All I'm pointing out is that so long as this is the case, and you agree with Christine's belief that the new mathematics that marries quantum theories and classical physics along with the recent detection of gravitational waves make the theory of a universe from nothing a more attractive idea, then it is proper to conclude you believe a universe from nothing is a possibility, even though at present you believe there is not enough evidence to prove it. Is that a fair comment?

 

[ChristineM]

I understand that you claim you don't think a universe from nothing because there is not enough evidence, but I also understand that you do not rule out the possibility, is my understanding correct?

All I'm pointing out is that so long as this is the case, and you agree with Christine's belief that the new mathematics that marries quantum theories and classical physics along with the recent detection of gravitational waves make the theory of a universe from nothing a more attractive idea, then it is proper to conclude you believe a universe from nothing is a possibility, even though at present you believe there is not enough evidence to prove it. Is that a fair comment?

And on, and on, and on and on be goes, where he stops (if ever) n o one knows.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No woo in that,

Param Singh and others have developed such mathematics

Gravitational waves have been detected by equipment in China and the USA.

Pity you refuse to keep up with scientific advances while you insist on pontificating about your dreams that you imply are the font of all knowledge

Christine, conceptual knowledge using mathematical models to represent the idea that the universe came from nothing is far from being substantial evidence.

I hope you are keeping up with the scientific output, it is estimated that between 1,267,762.5 and 1,690,350 scientific papers are published each year.. https://www.quora.com/How-many-academic-papers-are-published-each-year

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Now that i'm looking back at it, looks like Polymath jumped in the middle of a morbid post which was not addressed to any particular poster. I should be careful not to step in those.

No problem my friend.