A Universe from Nothing?

[godnotgod]

We agree that apparent duality of any kind implies maya, but where we differ is that you appear to be stating that maya does not actually exist.

Can you provide context and link for the statement "from the very beginning, not a single thing exists" attributed to Huineng, as it is, it is meaningless?

Huineng - Wikipedia

If Brahman is the only true Reality, where is maya?

 

[ChristineM]

No, that is not what I said. A TV set cannot be compared to a brain. But the fact that TV signals do not originate from within the TV set can be compared to the idea that consciousness may not originate ifrom within the brain.

Do you understand the all-important difference here?

I did not quote the experiment to validate that a TV set is comparable to a brain.

But you stated:

... the experiment suggests it may be transmitted to ANOTHER brain.

...which you seem to accept. So if you accept the results of the experiment, I am asking how you suppose that to be possible. If you did not think it possible, you would not accept the results.

"A TV set cannot be compared to a brain"

Thank you, end of story

So now you are saying a tv set transmits signals to other tv sets. As would need to happen in your analogy

 

[ChristineM]

Oh, you too, now, eh?

Masturbation is healthy, why are you so embarrassed by it that you have to point fingers?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Huineng - Wikipedia

If Brahman is the only true Reality, where is maya?

Ok, I see what is meant to be conveyed....

身是菩提樹，　The body is a Bodhi tree,
心如明鏡臺。　The mind a standing mirror bright.
時時勤拂拭，　At all times polish it diligently,
勿使惹塵埃。　And let no dust alight

菩提本無樹，　Bodhi is originally without any tree;
明鏡亦非臺。　The bright mirror is also not a stand.
本來無一物，　Originally there is not a single thing —
何處惹塵埃。　Where could any dust be attracted?

...that the transcendent is beyond concepts, beyond form. The metaphorical dust that blurs the metaphorical mirror are the mind's conceptualizations.

Cease thought and there is no 'I' to arise to interpret absolute reality. However non-duality is not absolute nothing, but a relative one compared to the dualistic manifested mind, the mirror. Void and not-void are complementary conceptual opposites like verse 2 and 1 respectively.

 

[Polymath257]

What's that you say? You can relate to such an idea on a personal basis?

I'm sure almost everyone can. But it is sort of a silly view of the universe.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm sure almost everyone can. But it is sort of a silly view of the universe.

No more silly than the notion that living, conscious beings emerged from a dead universe.

 

[godnotgod]

Ok, I see what is meant to be conveyed....

身是菩提樹，　The body is a Bodhi tree,
心如明鏡臺。　The mind a standing mirror bright.
時時勤拂拭，　At all times polish it diligently,
勿使惹塵埃。　And let no dust alight

菩提本無樹，　Bodhi is originally without any tree;
明鏡亦非臺。　The bright mirror is also not a stand.
本來無一物，　Originally there is not a single thing —
何處惹塵埃。　Where could any dust be attracted?

...that the transcendent is beyond concepts, beyond form. The metaphorical dust that blurs the metaphorical mirror are the mind's conceptualizations.

Cease thought and there is no 'I' to arise to interpret absolute reality. However non-duality is not absolute nothing, but a relative one compared to the dualistic manifested mind, the mirror. Void and not-void are complementary conceptual opposites like verse 2 and 1 respectively.

You refer to 'absolute reality', which, by definition must be beyond all dualities, even the duality of void vs not-void. Brahman is the absolute reality, and Brahman is referred to as pure consciousness in the literature. There are no material components to consciousness, and therefore, is the very essence of no-thingness.

BTW, 'dust' is a Buddhist metaphor for the suffering of the world, and so Buddhists are heard to say that they have 'no attachment to dust'. So what Huineng is conveying is that suffering and it's causes have nowhere to cling since the mind (ie the mirror) does not exist to begin with. Huineng is describing, in metaphorical terms, the idea of emptiness, or Sunyata, in which no phenomena in the universe possesses an abiding and inherent self-nature. There are no 'things'; but there are forms, and it is form which is confused for 'things'.

 

[godnotgod]

Masturbation is healthy, why are you so embarrassed by it that you have to point fingers?

I am simply pointing to that whose mind within which it occurred in the first place. He thinks everyone would think that, but I, for one, do not equate masturbation with a prolific universe.

So why are you embarrassed by masturbation?

 

[godnotgod]

"A TV set cannot be compared to a brain"

Thank you, end of story

So now you are saying a tv set transmits signals to other tv sets. As would need to happen in your analogy

Right. TV set is not analogous to brain. But if you are paying attention, you would understand the metaphor which says that HOW theTV receives the signal IS analogous to HOW the brain receives IT'S signals, which is external to each. So it's not about the TV or the brain; it's about how they both receive their signals.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I thank you for the leads and i can sure tell you that both of those are out on the table. Both the bloodline hypothesis and the reincarnation process have appeared in the set of information as the ..."expressed" reasons for why this contact is being made. As i was researching those possibilities i picked up a few really unusual items right around that time just by lucky chance that made a rather strong suggestion about the lineage thing. There had been a very strong sense and several indications i might be related to the folks in Colorado whose lineage went back to a village 40 miles from where Ramiro ruled from, a town called Jaca.
I FOUND a possible way i could have gotten crossed up with the people in CO when i found a branch of my family that would have been aunts uncles and cousins that had been living in a small town north of Denver since 1871 with the first of these relatives in that year bearing MY COMPLETE NAME.
I stumbled over it while looking for the other folks' last name!
I found that too. They arrived there, in Longmont CO almost as soon as my family name and the two families have been living there ever since.
My grandfather's 'oldest brother" Clarence actually joined my direct lineage in Texas in 1893 and was then listed as "brother" in the next census seven years later. He was actually the oldest son of the great uncle from Longmont which is further evidence of the family connection to there and possibly to the folks from Denver. Just out of curiosity i asked the guys at the desk of the genealogy department at the library if they had ever seen anyone come to Denver from other states and into the genealogy dept and say that they have had strange experiences and coincidences with people they met there only to later come up in there and find they are dealing with actual long lost blood relatives. (?) The guy said "seven times in the last six years this has happened."
Thank god i'm not the only one.

9:27 AM 8/26/17
OMG! Here it is, i couldn't see this after i mangled the wrong button, i tried to post it and thought i had lost it yesterday.

I really appreciate your interest and input into this as it's the only thing in my reality that behaves the way this does.
I would characterize the behavior of the phenomenon as being very consistent in its information, message and means of delivery.
I would also characterize it as being precisely well timed between just thoughts and actual physical objects, people, random conversations right around that same time that are specific to this set of information and UNLIKE pretty much everything else. I hope i'm making any sense at all to you or anyone about this.
When a thought or a certain set of information comes in on anything or any one, i may have no evidence of that thought having any basis in fact, but if it persists, then i maintain my awareness of it in case anything else i've never heard of or encountered before seems to resonate with it by bearing matching or at least similar information.
For some reason i cannot account for after taking every precaution i can think of based on the scientific method to check for confirmation bias, i keep coming up against the fact that so far, as much is i know how to falsify this in a couple of different ways, including assumption of mental illness or defect..... It has still not falsified in any of its occurrences in nature ant that includes all of our human interactions with one another. Not once, so far as i've been observing it.

I have seen other peoples' coincidences as well 'reflecting' particular recent experiences (and) with specific people. This is extremely rare for me and is maybe only visible to me if i have some knowledge of the specific person or incident by relation to the person experiencing their coincidence. I had this happen some six months after the person's actual experience with a rather scary beautiful girl very mature for her age and radiating in what seemed to be infrared heat. Yep i had seen the real thing with this person while it was occurring, but i basically didn't pay that much attention to it at the time, only saw girl this person later had a very bad 'termination of friendship', i'm gonna say.
The person's mom sent her out of the state to finish her education, so must've been pretty bad. Six months later seven hundred fifty miles away i saw my person again and we were out by a pool in in beautiful upscale surroundings having a family reunion of sorts. I looked over at a far corner of the pool for some reason and i saw a young woman that looked er...(YIKES!)
The woman was extremely similar to the girl my person had had the falling out with, but i could see her clearly and i quickly determined that it was most certainly not the same person. The problem was she was behaving exactly in the same provocative and even alluring behavior i had witnessed before in the person's actual prior incident. Another problem was that she was showing the same amount of interest in both the person and myself, same as before as well. I did not consider this to be my coincidence because it was not primarily or even secondarily my incident. I had concern, but no controlling interest or ability to change any outcomes but one.
The one occurring right at that time by the pool.
I directed my person's attention in the complete opposite direction and NEVER said a word about what i was observing behind her knowing that if she were to see the person i was observing she would have been frightened to sobbing tears, if not immediately, then later. My person was much younger than i was and had never seen anything like that before and i wasn't about to have her introduced to it like that.
No further incident from there, we left before the woman across the pool had built up the courage to come over to us and start a conversation and i was pretty sure from her staring and body language, she was werkin' up to it.
Yes, ...werkin'.

I actually checked on the map when you first mentioned a place in Spain south the Pyrenees and Lourdes, and I intuited it may be around the Jaca area. And of course it is evident that you had a connection with the folk in Colorado with Spanish blood. Btw, are you a Latino in this life?

It is said in Theosophical literature that family members tend to reincarnate together so as to progress together. People are not all equal in the evolutionary context and it is normal that those at the same level form closer bonds than those at other levels as they share much more in common as to the sort of life's lessons and challenges to be learned and overcome.

I must say you have opened up to a lot of stuff that the 'normal' person is not yet opened to. Was there a time when you suddenly became aware of the synchronicities and psychic phenomena, or did it unfold gradually? When it happens suddenly, it can be likened to a higher chakra opening, and it can cause much imbalance in one's life, for the mind needs answers to so much amazing stuff that it was previously unaware of, that it can become somewhat manic, and the opposite, but you seem to be managing ok.

So where do you think your life's experiences are leading, is there a goal in your mind in the larger context of existence beyond the trials and tribulations, both good and bad, of this physical world's reality?

 

[Polymath257]

No more silly than the notion that living, conscious beings emerged from a dead universe.

Well, considering that living, conscious things are *made* from atoms that are not living, I don't see the issue.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You refer to 'absolute reality', which, by definition must be beyond all dualities, even the duality of void vs not-void. Brahman is the absolute reality, and Brahman is referred to as pure consciousness in the literature. There are no material components to consciousness, and therefore, is the very essence of no-thingness.

BTW, 'dust' is a Buddhist metaphor for the suffering of the world, and so Buddhists are heard to say that they have 'no attachment to dust'. So what Huineng is conveying is that suffering and it's causes have nowhere to cling since the mind (ie the mirror) does not exist to begin with. Huineng is describing, in metaphorical terms, the idea of emptiness, or Sunyata, in which no phenomena in the universe possesses an abiding and inherent self-nature. There are no 'things'; but there are forms, and it is form which is confused for 'things'.

Hold on....absolute reality is a concept, and the reality that is represented by it is on the other side, in reality absolute reality is non-conceptual. Wait, the reality represented by concept 'non-conceptual' is on the other side of non-conceptual concept. Wait, that is also conceptual, how about just stop all brain synapse firings!

Aummm..

The above is all you need to know.....

 

[godnotgod]

Hold on....absolute reality is a concept, and the reality that is represented by it is on the other side, in reality absolute reality is non-conceptual. Wait, the reality represented by concept 'non-conceptual' is on the other side of non-conceptual concept. Wait, that is also conceptual, how about just stop all brain synapse firings!

Aummm..

The above is all you need to know.....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well, considering that living, conscious things are *made* from atoms that are not living, I don't see the issue.

Yes, I agree that Atoms are not alive in the sense of what we understand human, animal, and plant life is, but it is individually active and interactive with other Atoms and Molecules. It is the energy associated with these so called dead (non living) atoms and molecules that gives life to our bodies does it not?

 

[godnotgod]

Well, considering that living, conscious things are *made* from atoms that are not living, I don't see the issue.

Except that there are no such things as 'atoms' in the sense of Newtonian physics;; there are only standing waves appearing as 'particles', which make up what is thought of as 'atom'. In fact, as you well know, the 'atom', it turns out, is actually made up of over 99.99...% empty space. The rest, as particles, are standing waves created by excitations in their respective energy fields.

But that's getting ahead of things. You don't know that atoms are not living or conscious. In fact, at least one prominent physicist thinks they ARE conscious:

“It is remarkable that mind enters into our awareness of nature on two separate levels. At the highest level, the level of human consciousness, our minds are somehow directly aware of the complicated flow of electrical and chemical patterns in our brains. At the lowest level, the level of single atoms and electrons, the mind of an observer is again involved in the description of events. Between lies the level of molecular biology, where mechanical models are adequate and mind appears to be irrelevant. But I, as a physicist, cannot help suspecting that there is a logical connection between the two ways in which mind appears in my universe. I cannot help thinking that our awareness of our own brains has something to do with the process which we call "observation" in atomic physics. That is to say, I think our consciousness is not just a passive epiphenomenon carried along by the chemical events in our brains, but is an active agent forcing the molecular complexes to make choices between one quantum state and another. In other words, mind is already inherent in every electron, and the processes of human consciousness differ only in degree but not in kind from the processes of choice between quantum states which we call "chance" when they are made by electrons.”

― Freeman Dyson
A quote by Freeman Dyson

So do Amit Goswami, Fritjof Capra, Deepak Chopra, John Hagelin, and many other professionals.

But assuming that atoms are not conscious or living, how do you explain how a living conscious brain comes about as the result of the activity of dead unconscious matter?

And if the universe is none other than Pure Abstract Intelligence, then it is far more feasible that a 'material' universe could emerge from it, 'material' not being an adequate descriptive term any longer, as per Quantum Physics.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, I agree that Atoms are not alive in the sense of what we understand human, animal, and plant life is, but it is individually active and interactive with other Atoms and Molecules. It is the energy associated with these so called dead (non living) atoms and molecules that gives life to our bodies does it not?

Not exactly the energy. The chemical interactions of this complexity and nature *are* life.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

I actually checked on the map when you first mentioned a place in Spain south the Pyrenees and Lourdes, and I intuited it may be around the Jaca area. And of course it is evident that you had a connection with the folk in Colorado with Spanish blood. Btw, are you a Latino in this life?

It is said in Theosophical literature that family members tend to reincarnate together so as to progress together. People are not all equal in the evolutionary context and it is normal that those at the same level form closer bonds than those at other levels as they share much more in common as to the sort of life's lessons and challenges to be learned and overcome.

I must say you have opened up to a lot of stuff that the 'normal' person is not yet opened to. Was there a time when you suddenly became aware of the synchronicities and psychic phenomena, or did it unfold gradually? When it happens suddenly, it can be likened to a higher chakra opening, and it can cause much imbalance in one's life, for the mind needs answers to so much amazing stuff that it was previously unaware of, that it can become somewhat manic, and the opposite, but you seem to be managing ok.

So where do you think your life's experiences are leading, is there a goal in your mind in the larger context of existence beyond the trials and tribulations, both good and bad, of this physical world's reality?

That's so cool, i'm glad you checked it out on the map, cuz you can sure bet that i made a google map of everything and everyone in this information and i did turn up some very interesting alignments and corresponding measurements that were oddly precise and i knew that shouldn't happen too. I did my own little mapping experiment with a naturally occurring feature on the earth and used it to make relatively evenly spaced lines all the way around earth. Not easy to do without getting a crooked line because you can only lay a line a little less that half way around before it starts moving around haphazardly. The lines HAD to be as straight as possible and i did pretty good with lining up each line all the way around. I came out with seven round the world lines that sort of mimicked real lines of longitude and latitude. I used that to compare the precision of alignments and corresponding measurements in my map. Interesting but not as precise as my lines from the coincidences and this information. I ended up with an odd looking assortment of red lines all around earth with 2 3D patterns of pyramids, one over the US and the other over Spain. Then i FINALLY figured out how to turn on the grid after six months of compiling this map and discovered that the Greenwich Line, 0 degrees longitude goes right between two of the most important points on the map over Spain, parting the two points by exactly 13 miles on either side. That's an important number as it typically and repeatedly shows up time synchronous like a signal to represent the deceased father of the Spanish folks in Denver. I wasn't too surprised at that, nor was i too surprised to see a big pentagon and a hexagon in my map over Micronesia and the Philippines. I had seen those features before on maps of Earth's power grid, the life force power grid with all the triangles, and that was what really surprised me about this feature. It was made by a combination of my natural feature lines and the lines following the family name to the Philippines, so go figure. I did at that point and i decided right then i better consider something real big around here as possibly alive. like something at least the size of a planet....
One other fun thing on the map was that the two pyramids over the US and Spain were both aligned with the stars in Orion's belt so that when i spun the earth slowly i could see the stars come up out of the top of one pyramid and down into the top of the other. I cannot make this stuff up, the lines were chosen by the facts found in the information, by the locations of people past and present, living and deceased and the experimental grid i made from the natural feature. The natural feature did not contribute any of the lines which made the two pyramids.
Gotta go!

 

[Polymath257]

Except that there are no such things as 'atoms' in the sense of Newtonian physics;; there are only standing waves appearing as 'particles', which make up what is thought of as 'atom'. In fact, as you well know, the 'atom', it turns out, is actually made up of over 99.99...% empty space. The rest, as particles, are standing waves created by excitations in their respective energy fields.

But that's getting ahead of things. You don't know that atoms are not living or conscious. In fact, at least one prominent physicist thinks they ARE conscious:

“It is remarkable that mind enters into our awareness of nature on two separate levels. At the highest level, the level of human consciousness, our minds are somehow directly aware of the complicated flow of electrical and chemical patterns in our brains. At the lowest level, the level of single atoms and electrons, the mind of an observer is again involved in the description of events. Between lies the level of molecular biology, where mechanical models are adequate and mind appears to be irrelevant. But I, as a physicist, cannot help suspecting that there is a logical connection between the two ways in which mind appears in my universe. I cannot help thinking that our awareness of our own brains has something to do with the process which we call "observation" in atomic physics. That is to say, I think our consciousness is not just a passive epiphenomenon carried along by the chemical events in our brains, but is an active agent forcing the molecular complexes to make choices between one quantum state and another. In other words, mind is already inherent in every electron, and the processes of human consciousness differ only in degree but not in kind from the processes of choice between quantum states which we call "chance" when they are made by electrons.”

― Freeman Dyson
A quote by Freeman Dyson

So do Amit Goswami, Fritjof Capra, Deepak Chopra, John Hagelin, and many other professionals.

If so, then they have a *very* different conceptualization of 'consciousness' than I do.

But assuming that atoms are not conscious or living, how do you explain how a living conscious brain comes about as the result of the activity of dead unconscious matter?

Well, life and consciousness are aspects of how certain collections of physical things interact. Consciousness involves the storiage and processing of information and life involves the ability to grow and reproduce (neither are technical definitions, obviously).

And if the universe is none other than Pure Abstract Intelligence, then it is far more feasible that a 'material' universe could emerge from it, 'material' not being an adequate descriptive term any longer, as per Quantum Physics.

I don't see 'material' as being problematic unless you insist that to be material means what classical philosophy taught. But I don't see 'intelligence' at the quantum level: only reactivity according to natural laws. Intelligence is a matter of ability to process information in a dynamic way.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Not exactly the energy. The chemical interactions of this complexity and nature *are* life.

It is the chemical interactions I am referring to, which you say they *are* life. And these chemical reactions involve energy exchanges associated with the relevant atoms and molecules involved.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

I actually checked on the map when you first mentioned a place in Spain south the Pyrenees and Lourdes, and I intuited it may be around the Jaca area. And of course it is evident that you had a connection with the folk in Colorado with Spanish blood. Btw, are you a Latino in this life?

It is said in Theosophical literature that family members tend to reincarnate together so as to progress together. People are not all equal in the evolutionary context and it is normal that those at the same level form closer bonds than those at other levels as they share much more in common as to the sort of life's lessons and challenges to be learned and overcome.

I must say you have opened up to a lot of stuff that the 'normal' person is not yet opened to. Was there a time when you suddenly became aware of the synchronicities and psychic phenomena, or did it unfold gradually? When it happens suddenly, it can be likened to a higher chakra opening, and it can cause much imbalance in one's life, for the mind needs answers to so much amazing stuff that it was previously unaware of, that it can become somewhat manic, and the opposite, but you seem to be managing ok.

So where do you think your life's experiences are leading, is there a goal in your mind in the larger context of existence beyond the trials and tribulations, both good and bad, of this physical world's reality?

I missed answering your question, but no. In this life i'm not Latino, but i sure did come into this life with a little bit of information that didn't fit with anyone or anything in any of my surroundings for my whole life until five years ago when i met the Spanish folks from Denver. I had seen quite a few oddities in my life that caused me to suspect that there was some coincidences that seemed very unlikely and they kept happening, but i never actually believed it because of what i knew it would take to falsify a hypothesis claiming its existence. It would take a concerted effort by dozens of people at any given time or a Hollywood movie crew and neither of those were apparent, so i dismissed the whole thing as simply impossible. When my 'brother' from the/my Spanish family recited a line i remembered from a dream when i was about seven word for word and right then i calculated 41 years since that dream and THEN i realized He was the one in my dream and that i had a serious problem with information defying the laws of physics. It's actually been a little over five and a half years and as far as i'm concerned i'm 5 and a half years old and i've learned some amazing things about people and life that i should have learned the first time i was five and wished that i had until i recently realized i had picked up most of that i missed the first time around and it's having an amazing healing and reconstructing effect in all areas of my present day life.
This is just really great!