A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

[oldbadger]

I note that one of the links posted in the message #318 to Tony included a book written by Shi’a Muslims that is clearly a polemic against the Baha’i Faith.

Twelve Principles

Baha'is have no human rights in Iran.

As noted by one who as reviewed the book:

Their holy sites are desecrated, their graveyards bulldozed, their elected leaders executed under a sham pretext or simply "disappeared" without a trial.
See: Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia for an overview

If you want to read the thinking and justification for people who live in a country like that - and then decide the best use of their lives is to spend their time writing books attacking the Baha'i Faith, then this book is an excellent resource.
Those looking for a fair-minded investigation of the Baha'i Faith can look elsewhere.

So now the source of this ‘Baha’i’ quotation of yours is clarified.

The other quotes are simply taken out of context and you have assigned meanings contradictory to the Baha’i Writings. This can be easily demonstrated to anyone with a genuine interest in what Baha’u’llah actually teaches.

I believe that many many thousands of Bahais live in Tehran, before any census of the whole of Iran is sought.

Shia Islamic Iran seems to be very patient with a religion whose objective is to convert Muslims into apostasy. Whilst Western countries mumble against its activities I understand that many resident Jews in Iran reckon that Iran is safer than France.

Many if not all of Bahai's claims about Iran's inhumanity to Bahais look like misinformation under closer scrutiny.

In a World where, for instance, Russia is claiming that the UK is telling lies when it accuses two Russians of poisoning persons in Salisbury, England, we can see that different countries and sides hurl the 'lies and propaganda' claims at each other as standard procedure, but this is also noticed when Bahai accuses it's estranged brethren and other scrutinizing investigators of such practices. But it never can clear its reputation of the allegations which such as we all discover.

 

[Dawnofhope]

UNITED NATIONS—5 October 2016—
In his annual reportto the UN General Assembly, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon says that human rights violations in Iran continue at an “alarming rate,” noting also that Baha’is there “are the most severely persecuted religious minority.”

In a 19-page report, Mr. Ban expressed concern over Iran’s high rate of executions, continued use of torture, “far more erosion of freedom of expression,” a “crackdown” on women’s rights activists, and ongoing discrimination against religious and ethnic minorities.

Mr. Ban devoted ten paragraphs to the situation of Iranian Baha’is, referring to them as the “most severely persecuted” religious minority, “subjected to multiple forms of discrimination that affect their enjoyment of economic, social and cultural rights.”

Among other things, Mr. Ban said that Baha’is are regularly prohibited from engaging in peaceful assemblies, are restricted in access to higher education, and continue to “suffer from severe economic pressure.”

Ban Ki-moon: Baha’is “most severely persecuted religious minority” in Iran

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi.....
I asked:-
Have you any direct examples of governments thanking Bahai for its efforts for peace?

You have offered statements of friendship from a minister, some greetings on an anniversary, and a nice communication from Iran, a country which Bahais claim is nasty to them.

So you haven't got any Direct evidence of Nations' Governments thanking Bahai for its efforts for peace.



D'you know, it seems that Bahai can hardly make a one sentence statement that rings true.

The letters will be sent for certain Holy days or functions, but they contain the thanks as mentioned.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Governments send out these kinds of messages routinely to all cultural groups, religious organisations etc. Just two days back, Prime Minister Trudeau visited a Hindu temple in our city while he was here. He was being hosted by the MP for my area. It was unannounced drop in so they wouldn't get a crowd.

So this is nothing special. It's just courtesy (and politicking by governments), and really very common. Heck, if you tell them, they'll send out personal congratulations on 50th wedding anniversaries and the like.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha’is are asked by Bahaullah to associate with peoples of all faiths including Muslims in spirit of love and fellowship;

Consort with all religions with amity and concord, that they may inhale from you the sweet fragrance of God.

http://darrenhiebert.com/documents/compilations/OtherFaiths.html

If someone joins the Baha’i Faith and decides they no longer consider themselves a Baha’i they are free to leave and Baha’is are encouraged to freely associate with them as they do anyone else. There is no shunning because someone leaves the Baha’i Faith. That would be contrary to freedom of religion which is a fundamental Baha’i principle.

Baha’is are permitted to marry those that are not Baha’is and there is no compulsion for their spouses to become Baha’is.

There are certainly no laws of apostasy in the Baha’i Faith such as those in Islam where someone can be put to death if they decided to no longer be a Muslim or wishes to convert to another religion.

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

It is because Some Muslims regards the Baha’i Faith as an apostate religion they are persecuted in Iran and a number of other Muslim countries.

The Bahai faith

 

[Dawnofhope]

It won’t be too hard to find governments and various dignitaries praising the Baha’is for their efforts towards bringing peace and tolerance. The Governor General of my country attended and spoke at the 50th anniversary of the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha’is of New Zealand.

National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is 50th Anniversary

 

[Vinayaka]

It won’t be too hard to find governments and various dignitaries praising the Baha’is for their efforts towards bringing peace and tolerance. The Governor General of my country attended and spoke at the 50th anniversary of the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha’is of New Zealand.

National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is 50th Anniversary

Of course. They do this for all groups. It's politics. Then the center puts up a poster commemorating the event. You guys make it sound like the Baha'is are singled out.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Of course. They do this for all groups. It's politics. Then the center puts up a poster commemorating the event. You guys make it sound like the Baha'is are singled out.

We’re seen as being a faith community that works in collaboration with others towards important social goals such as constructive interfaith dialogue, multiculturalism, the equality of men and women as well as peace. So in that sense we stand alongside Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and even Muslims who are heading in the same direction. So you’re right that we’re not singled out and seen as special but we are considered responsible citizens who want to contribute to the betterment of the world.

 

[Vinayaka]

We’re seen as being a faith community that works in collaboration with others towards important social goals such as constructive interfaith dialogue, multiculturalism, the equality of men and women as well as peace. So in that sense we stand alongside Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and even Muslims who are heading in the same direction. So you’re right that we’re not singled out and seen as special but we are considered responsible citizens who want to contribute to the betterment of the world.

Government officials go where they get invited to, time permitting. It's a nice way of saying thank you to citizens of faith groups, and certainly not a place to raise controversy. They do want your vote, although in British Commonwealth heads of state, it's more just a nicety, as the Governor-Generals etc. are often just the Queens representatives. Not sure about NZ, or Australia, but here in Canada that's the case.

A better recognition, more worthwhile, are folks who win the wide variety of Peace Prizes awarded, like the Nobel. Far better indicator of actual efforts, in my view, although some of the donors of such prizes do have religious or political bias.

List of peace prizes - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course. They do this for all groups. It's politics. Then the center puts up a poster commemorating the event. You guys make it sound like the Baha'is are singled out.

I was asked to produce evidence. That is all it is, the requested evidence to what I said in a post some way back. That the Baha'i are thanked for contributing to Peace and Unity.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I’m reading all the posts again, from the beginning, looking for ideas in what people say and do in this thread, about what needs to change in popular attitudes and behavior, and how any of us might be able to help change it. This is one example of what needs to change: painting groups of people with one broad stroke.

When things "need" to change how you gonna get people to change?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you have or belong to a caste?

Yeah, I am a Kashmiri Brahmin of the section who conducted rituals - known in our society as 'Gurus' - more traditionalists. The other section is known as 'Karkuns', who were more prosperous and were government servants - more progressive in the modern sense. Nehrus were 'Karkuns'.

.. in my view, although some of the donors of such prizes do have religious or political bias.

You said it, Vinayaka. Nothing in this world is without bias or group/national interests. We act only because of these otherwise not.

When things "need" to change how you gonna get people to change?

I think it comes like a Tsunami. Each wave is bigger than the previous. And in the end society is compelled to accept the change. It happened like that recently in India where the 157-year old anti-LGBTQ laws were abolished. We are now into giving equal constitutional status to Muslim women.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When things "need" to change how you gonna get people to change?

We get offered a choice. The document 'One Common Faith' is a choice. The Message of Baha'u'llah is a choice.

It is to the extent we choose to understand what is offered, that can become the pivot of our commitment to that change.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Yeah, I am a Kashmiri Brahmin of the section who conducted rituals - known in our society as 'Gurus' - more traditionalists. The other section is known as 'Karkuns', who were more prosperous and were government servants - more progressive in the modern sense. Nehrus were 'Karkuns'.

Does this mean that (in western terms) you are within the highest caste, in our/my words a priest?

You must be held in the highest respect by those around you, I expect.

Does the caste system still carry much weight in your country and society?

I expect that it might still do, because in the UK there is still a tier system which rises by many levels........ most women and poorer working-class men still have much more difficulty in obtaining local and national government positions, and highest positions in boardrooms etc....... I believe that secret circles such as freemasonry choose and put their sons first which still shows in our vast pay gaps. But when that gap closes I expect that women will be forming their own secretive circles and doing exactly the same thing........ a senior police officer recently got caught putting her friends forward for various titles, honours and medals. Humans...... don't you luv 'em?

 

[oldbadger]

The letters will be sent for certain Holy days or functions, but they contain the thanks as mentioned.

Regards Tony

Oh dear......... Tony........ Tony........ those letters get sent out to every group, religion, culture, etc as part of routine diplomatic common sense. You surely must know that.

To suggest that nations have thanked Bahai for it's actions towards peace (whatever you said) is just more paint and glue on a patchwork of misinformation.

It reminds me of the days when Bahais claimed that they 'Advised the United Nations'.

But I'll give you another chance, eh? Please tell us here what Bahai has done towards peace in the World. And please don't tell us that evangelising for Bahai falls into that category because some of us here feel quite sure that a Bahai World would be an absolute nightmare.

 

[oldbadger]

UNITED NATIONS—5 October 2016—
In his annual reportto the UN General Assembly, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon says that human rights violations in Iran continue at an “alarming rate,” noting also that Baha’is there “are the most severely persecuted religious minority.”

Oh dear.......
Compared with Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia Bahais in Iran have a reasonably easy time, don't forget that Bahai would overturn the Iranian government in a 'blink' if it could gain enough converts.

And yet scores of Bahais live safely in Iran.

In a 19-page report, Mr. Ban expressed concern over Iran’s high rate of executions, continued use of torture, “far more erosion of freedom of expression,” a “crackdown” on women’s rights activists, and ongoing discrimination against religious and ethnic minorities.

Nasty Iran........ that almost sounded a wee-bit like the USA. Certainly sounded like Russia and scores of other countries.
Cherry picking the bad news about the one country you hate, whilst turning a blind eye to others that don't hassle Bahais is just that...... cherry picking.

Mr. Ban devoted ten paragraphs to the situation of Iranian Baha’is, referring to them as the “most severely persecuted” religious minority, “subjected to multiple forms of discrimination that affect their enjoyment of economic, social and cultural rights.”

Yeah, Iran doesn't like Bahais....... and yet Bahais survive in Iran and have done for 150 years..... as apostates! Most countries clamp down on some group on another, we don't much like National Front or similar offshoots. In the UK the government banned meetings of more than about six folks during the miner's strikes.....
Stop wailing......

Among other things, Mr. Ban said that Baha’is are regularly prohibited from engaging in peaceful assemblies, are restricted in access to higher education, and continue to “suffer from severe economic pressure.”

The UK restricts certain assemblies.
If Bahais didn't keep deliberately breaking the laws about assemblies then Bahais wouldn't get into trouble.
Bahais are supposed to obey the laws of the countries which they live in.

Ban Ki-moon: Baha’is “most severely persecuted religious minority” in Iran

Let's cut to it.....
Ban Ki-moon mentioned the massive quantity of executions in Iran in these times. OK. True.

How many Bahais have been executed in the LAST TEN YEARS please.
Thankyou.

Waiting.

 

[oldbadger]

One member has written about Bahai executions in Iran, and their bad treatment.
A brief research (source *) shows that 508 people were execuited in Iran in one year 2016. I don't know how many people were executed by other ways, so let's stick with a rough annual figure of 500 execxutions each year in Iran.
Ergo there have been approximately 5000 hanging executions in Iran in the last ten years.
The question stands:-
HOW MANY BAHAIS HAVE BEEN EXECUTED IN IRAN IN THE LAST TEN YEARS?
*
Annual Report on Execution in Iran – 2017
The present report concerns the individuals executed in the one year period from 10 October 2016 until the beginning of October 2017 and refers to at least 508 people executed in different parts of Iran by hanging. The report shows a rise by about 1% in the number of executions compared to the same period last year. *
OB..... >>>> facts before misinformation

 

[danieldemol]

Murder of a Baha'i in Yazd and Inquiry About the Rights of Baha'is - Iran Press Watch
Dated December 7th 2016

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh dear......... Tony........ Tony........

But I'll give you another chance

Thanks for the chance.

I am happy that many work for peace and unity and we will work with them all. After all we are but one human race, we are all the family of man.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does this mean that (in western terms) you are within the highest caste, in our/my words a priest? You must be held in the highest respect by those around you, I expect.

Does the caste system still carry much weight in your country and society? I expect that it might still do, because in the UK there is still a tier system which rises by many levels........ most women and poorer working-class men still have much more difficulty in obtaining local and national government positions, and highest positions in boardrooms etc.

Yes, brahmins are among the higher castes. But what respect an individual gets depends solely on that individual.

Caste, actually brings disadvantage to the people of higher castes. We have a strong affirmative action program, according to which 50% of opportunities are reserved for lower castes and tribes (23%) and middle castes and tribes (27%). This is according to their percentage in Indian population and mandated in the Indian Constitution.

So, where an A+ would not suffice for person from a higher caste, people from lower or middle caste with C will get admission to a professional college or a job. People from higher castes are not allowed to compete for the reserved seats. The selection committees also have selectors in the same proportion. Even the law-makers (National and State ministries, Members of Indian parliament, State legislatures, City Councils, Village Councils) have the same proportion. In a democracy with universal franchise, one cannot anger any section of the society.