A western Islam?

[sandandfoam]

Perhaps you mean to subject/intend to submit Islam to your views and opinions rather than accept the stance of Islam and submit to its views? Think over it.

Hi Starsoul.
This is a very real issue for me and one that I have thought a lot about. To my mind, when I peel back all the layers inside of me - there will I find God. I seek to experience God in this life. I seek the path of the mystic.
To my mind submission to God is about being true to oneself. It is, in a sense, about "dying before I die".
I find the strict approach to Islam a path unsuited to me. I probably do intend to submit Islam to my views, I imagine everyone does - if they didn't there would never be disagreements. But Islam is a religion for all and I think there is room for me in it.
Perhaps I am mistaken?
Whatever the world thinks I am likely to consider myself a muslim - I don't think I can do otherwise

 

[beenie]

Hi Starsoul.
This is a very real issue for me and one that I have thought a lot about. To my mind, when I peel back all the layers inside of me - there will I find God. I seek to experience God in this life. I seek the path of the mystic.
To my mind submission to God is about being true to oneself. It is, in a sense, about "dying before I die".
I find the strict approach to Islam a path unsuited to me. I probably do intend to submit Islam to my views, I imagine everyone does - if they didn't there would never be disagreements. But Islam is a religion for all and I think there is room for me in it.
Perhaps I am mistaken?
Whatever the world thinks I am likely to consider myself a muslim - I don't think I can do otherwise

Of course therevis room for you in Islam.
Look, depending on where you live as a Muslim, you'll face different challenges. It's easy to sit in Pakistan, Saudi, etc., and tell Muslims living in the US how they would handle liquor, dating, etc. because their whole society is set up for that lifestyle. Muslims face unique challenges in the West, and parenting has to adjust to that. Sure we teach our children about alcohol consumption and Islam's stance on it, but we also should not judge others. I'm not a fan of pointing out flaws of others in order to lift us up. Just because something is forbidden in our religion doesn't mean we can put others' beliefs down.

 

[Starsoul]

Hi Starsoul.
This is a very real issue for me and one that I have thought a lot about. To my mind, when I peel back all the layers inside of me - there will I find God. I seek to experience God in this life. I seek the path of the mystic.
To my mind submission to God is about being true to oneself. It is, in a sense, about "dying before I die".
I find the strict approach to Islam a path unsuited to me. I probably do intend to submit Islam to my views, I imagine everyone does - if they didn't there would never be disagreements. But Islam is a religion for all and I think there is room for me in it.
Perhaps I am mistaken?
Whatever the world thinks I am likely to consider myself a muslim - I don't think I can do otherwise

Perhaps mistaken only a very lil bit, but not entirely I think You are right where you speak from and I wont deny that ,given the kind of life style most of us privileged people live, and the ways we have gotten used to, giving them up entirely is what seems difficult for us and at times we do give in to thinking that it is a tad bit too strict for us to follow, currently, but you never know how easier or more suitable a certain thing becomes for you, a couple of years down the road. It may be very difficult now, but there is no certainty that you wont be doing it, willingly and gladly, after some years, maybe 5, 8 or etc later on.

So, its good that you have got the conviction there MashAllah and thats very appreciable. What you may lack at this point, could be the courage, or the will to do something that you haven't felt like doing yet, and I can only say that one must pray to Allah swt only, to give us the kind of love for Islam and the kind of submission that He would like from us nothing more nothing less. That pretty much sums it up, it is a gradual process and there is no hurry in getting ahead of our understanding, but yes definitely guidance is a continuous process, we seek guidance every step of the way, everyday of our lives, like for instance I ask for Allah swt to take my life at the strongest point of my faith, so that I may not be weak or fall into mis-guidance or astray since man is very very prone to that, muslims even more so, because shaitan is an arch enemy of people who are on the right path, and he is way smarter than us. Imagine, what is man alone without help from Allah swt infront of an enemy which is there to deceive us for as long as before humanity and knows the human psychology better than they themselves do, it is only Allah swt who can help us from his influence on our logic and it is only Allah swt who can protect us from his deception.( that is not meant to fear satan, but to actually know the ways how he influences us, parts of that knowledge that has been given in the Quran and the hadith and it is very helpful indeed in self catharsis).

And when that stage comes in your life when you learn to differentiate between the desires of your self and the desires of your spirit, that is the time that you will start seeing what submission really means, and how vulnerable a human is without that spiritual connection to his Creator. That is the stage of realization when you don't even think twice before submitting because you are so damn sure of what you feel and what to do when you feel that way. We all have to work our way towards that stage, and we all desire to reach that stage as muslims , it is called eeman (true faith) which is ever growing. So, do not worry and just recite , memorize small surahs of the Quran, bit by bit( from the last chapter), just go with the flow and ask for help from Allah swt to always guide you to the right path, and he will always be by your side InshAllah taala, ameen.

 

[Starsoul]

Would also like to add, that sometimes we really under estimate the strength of our eeman inside as well. And that under-estimation, most of the times holds us back from things that we don't see ourselves doing in the future. It is encouraged to read the stories of the companions of the Prophet since before Islam even they came from vastly deviant backgrounds, from a society full of social evils and ill practices, from gambling, alcoholism and womanizing to deceiving people and preferring to kill an innocent girl child and etc, and AFTER islam, they never let their past get in the way of their future conviction towards Islam, only offcorse with the help from Allah swt.

And for the first many years, they worked on improving only their link with the Creator and their realization of His actual existence. They worked fiercely in strengthening their bond with Allah swt, and that is what helped with other things too.

So whatever you do, do it with the intention that you are doing it only for Allah swt. Whether it is the smallest act of kindness or prayer, revise the intention in your head, it helps us refresh our eeman. Meet muslim people, or reverts from your area, there's nothing good like a good company to be with, it just naturally increases our eeman. There are many reverts in Dublin, there are many masjids there one can go to, and meet many people from there. Perhaps you must go to one of the central masjids in dublin on Eid especially ( the one built by the Arabs) it is awesome MashAllah and their azaan pierces your soul subhanAllah, you have to visit it , on Eid especially inshAllah! and maybe offer your eid prayers there InshALlah ( you musttttttt! )

 

[Peace]

Thank you Peace.

I'm not especially hung up on alcohol - but it is proving very useful to illustrate what I perceive as cultural differences.
In practical terms, alcohol is such a huge part of our culture that it would be impossible for me to not hold or buy alcohol. I can't think of anyone we know apart from myself who doesn't drink.
Because of the culture we live in, I imagine if a western Islam emerged it might have a different attitude to, for example, alcohol consumption by non-muslims.
Maybe I'm mistaken

Non-Muslims are free to consume alcohol and we don't have the right to tell them why are you drinking alcohol. Even if a Western Islam emerged it won't interfere in non-Muslims' business. A Muslim could only advice another Muslim fellow not to drink, but for non-muslims it's their business and we don't have the right to tell them what to do or what not to do.

In practical terms, alcohol is such a huge part of our culture that it would be impossible for me to not hold or buy alcohol.

But since you are a Muslim you have to submit and not buy it or hold it Stephen. I know that it will take you some time since you are still at the beginning and trying to submit gradually

 

[Peace]

But Islam is a religion for all and I think there is room for me in it.
Perhaps I am mistaken?

You are not mistaken Stephen, of course there is a large room for you in Islam brother

Whatever the world thinks I am likely to consider myself a muslim - I don't think I can do otherwise

Since you believe in Islam as your religion, nobody has the right to deprive you from that right. As I told you before Islam is a universal religion for all humanity and no one can tell another one that Islam is not for him or her.

 

[maro]

I think islam has a great deal of flexibility within ,and also it has clear cut instructions that are not a subject of negotiation
To gain the wisdom of differentiating between both ,one has to continuosly gain knowledge particularly in the field of fiqh

i also agree that culture plays a role in how people think and act....one of my strongest motives to read and learn about what my religion truely teaches is the contradiction between the cultural practices of many people in my society and the religiosity they claim to have

 

[AgreeToDisagree]

It is just a general perception of mine. I called to a mosque and the people there were very polite, welcoming and nice. However I perceived them as strict. They were not of the same culture as I. I attribute my perception of them as strict to a cultural difference between us.
I have been trying to think of an example that might illustrate this:-
Say for example in this attitude to alcohol

from Muslim checkout staff get an alcohol opt-out clause - Times Online
Mustapha's attitude would seem strict to me, and I could not operate to this standard. It would be too strict and alien to me.

on the other hand, this attitude (of Tariq Ramadan) seems less strict to me and I would have no problem operating to this standard.

IMO, when a Muslim is forced to do things forbidden in his religion, he should first look for other permissible alternatives. If he doesn't have that luxury, then the forbidden will be permitted to him.

Let's imagine a Muslim living in western society. In order for him to provide for his family, he must either work or start a business. Lets assume he wants to start a business because he want's to avoid becoming like Mustapha. starting a business require one to apply for loans. Loans in western financing relies heavily on interests. In Islam, interest is forbidden. Like it or not, he has to resort to interest.

If it were to be too strict, you can't even work anywhere because in most cases, the company that you'll probably end up working with started it's business based on interest oriented loan.

I guess the only thing that Muslims can do in a western society is try to avoid doing forbidden things as much as possible. For those that are unavoidable, let Allah be the judge because Allah knows best.

The verse below shows how the unavoidable becomes permissible.

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (The Cow: 173)

Peace ATD

 

[the-jesusist]

As a Jesusist, I believe that Jesus was a prophet, just as Muslims do. I have also read the Gospel Of Barnabas, and I find It to be very much inline with the Prophet Jesus as indicated by the early Eastern texts, that are denounced by the Christian faith in general. If Islam is to become a western religion, it needs to shed it's arabic partners the Sunnah and the Hadith. I have read parts of the Koran in english, and I find that most of the objectional parts (to westerners) do not come from the Koran, but from the Sunnah and the Hadith. In the west, Muslims need to promote the Koran, and nothing else. I do not believe that Muhhamed would object to the promotion of the Koran and the exclusion of other "considered sacred" books. I use the western spelling of the Koran here. Is there an "very good" translation of the Koran into english

 

[khanyy]

'Stephen W'

Hi, i see you are interested in Islam and particularly Sufism, Islam as you may know is simply a name a tag, for this religion however it was first revealed to Noah;
[Pickthal 42:13] He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).
You see Sufism is all about finding Allah, Islam is a guidance a 'course' if you will on achieving this. Abraham (Ibrahim A.S) famously tried to find him thus was rewarded with this religion.

Now on to the second part Western Islam is a great concept... if handled correctly. As you may know already the actions of some Muslims get attributed to all now the west is liberal and so is Islam BUT to a degree, thus as another member has stated drinking alcohol is frowned in the Quran upon but Allah does seem to give time for the person to quit;

[Pickthal 5:90] O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
[Pickthal 4:43] O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

now if alcohol was permitted in western Islam that would go against the rules clearly stated, would go against the rest of the Islamic world, and other Muslims would probably be mocked for this hypothetical western Islam not following them thus moderation has to be prescribed.

Salaam.

 

[Starsoul]

hi Stephen,

Have you read about the end of times in Islam? The events that will unfold before the Arrival of the Mahdi and Prophet Eesa (A.S) Jesus pbuh; when you find time, do read over it( I'll try to send you some authentic links), because the scenario described in its narration is quite suited to today and points a lot towards what is happening the western society along with what is happening in the muslim circles( I wont call it a society yet, the differences and chaos seems to be at its peak unfortunately, something that had been predicted in the hadiths some 1400 years ago)

 

[Bismillah]

Western Islam can mean a host of things. For example as an American Muslim I can say that without a doubt converts in the West are the most productive and valuable members. Being raised here they understand the problems and difficulties, as well as successes, of growing up as a Western Muslim. People like Hamza Yusuf and Suhaib Webb are very relevant to my life and I believe that continuing popularity and scholarly work of Western Muslims will lead to a "Western Islam" oriented specifically for the Western Muslim.

 

[Peace]

Western Islam can mean a host of things. For example as an American Muslim I can say that without a doubt converts in the West are the most productive and valuable members. Being raised here they understand the problems and difficulties, as well as successes, of growing up as a Western Muslim. People like Hamza Yusuf and Suhaib Webb are very relevant to my life and I believe that continuing popularity and scholarly work of Western Muslims will lead to a "Western Islam" oriented specifically for the Western Muslim.

I too like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and Sheikh Suhaib Web masha'Allah. They are examples of successful faithful and pious converts and they have been doing their best for the sake of Islam.

 

[Alulu]

Some, or many, Muslims do not like the term "Western Islam". It sounds less authentic, as if they had to drop something of "real Islam" to fit in the Western picture and be accepted.
However, any group of believers living in a certain country gets influenced by that dominant culture. This automatically means it also touches the way you perceive your religion and therefore practice it. I think Stephen gave a good example of Western culture being much more individual oriented compared to for example Pakistani culture. Where collectivism is at the end of the day more important than the individual. The example given where your daughter would drink alcohol might therefore cause you as a Western Muslim to react differently then a Pakistani Muslim (living in Pakistan). For you as a Westerner individual choices is more important then "what people will say of your family" and "you and your wife". Therefore, you will of course talk to your daughter but at the end of the day you leave it at that: she decides to drink or not. This is understandable in a bigger Western society where all her friends are raised in the same way. If she would be the only one restricted in her environment because your "collectivistic" attitude prevails towards her drinking alcohol and you go one step further to force her to stop drinking this would inevitably clash. Clash because she notices she is the exception in her environment with having a father that does not accept and respect her own free will (she is individualistic therefore) but also because she got influenced by her environment and cant really grasp why you do not at least respect her own free will.

Whereas in a Pakistani society the girl lives in a environment where collectivistic norms prevail and she therefore is not the only one and understands not only from her parents but also from societal norms that "if limits are breached you have to take a step back again". She understands that her personal liberties end where her parents rights are breached. This includes having a daughter that drinks alcohol in most Muslim-collectivistic cultures because the father is by the environment perceived as being responsible for it. Again that collectivistic idea prevailing. Therefore, having grown up in such a culture, she often knows where the limits are.

In the West, especially protestant-calvinistic culture, there is a very strong emphasis in the common culture on own responsibility, individualism, rationality and taking things into your own hands. These features, having grown up in such a culture, effect your whole outlook on life.

 

[TashaN]

Hi all

I continue to stumble towards submission.
I understand that Islam is a universal religion. However, there does seem to be a share of culture embedded in it. I suppose that's only natural? As more Europeans and Americans revert to Islam I imagine something distinctive might emerge.
Do you agree?
If not, why?
If so, what shape do you think Islam will take in west? What will a western Islam look like?

Maybe something similar to what happened in Spain "Andalusia"?

I remember i read somewhere that in that time, many of the scholars in the middle east were having some reservations toward the scholars of Andalusia who forsake putting the traditional turban on their head. Spain has changed the Muslims and Muslims did change it as well.

I think the same might occur in the future whereby Muslims in the west will fill in the gap for the Muslims in other parts of the world and will influence it heavily.

I believe that all Muslims around the world have something to contribute in this religion.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

I sometimes just don't know what to say when I see how ignorant the majority of posters on this DIR is...

 

[Starsoul]

I sometimes just don't know what to say when I see how ignorant the majority of posters on this DIR is...

yeah and its surprising how confused and knowledgeable some other people are who renounce their religion at one point and start giving away sermons of knowledge at other points trying to sound like the most knowledgeable one there None of us claim scholars here, but you do seem to have a certain scholarly understanding of all matters when you're bashing islam and muslims quite frequently and then give you scholarly opinions in a dir if thats your expertise.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

I'm far from being knowledgeable on Islam and I rarely discuss it you know that, but it's okay Miss Supermuslimah who's obviously controlling Islam DIR has a right to make me any sort of reproach and belittle me, my community and my understanding Islam, not to forget that it was you who PMed me how you were hoping for me to return to the true path, it was people with your attitude who made me question deen in the first place.

Anyways mubarak, you managed bashing me out of Islam DIR today feel free to celebrate

 

[Starsoul]

ohho why be so sensitive dear sister, I only returned your compliment, you said 'all seem so ignorant here' which means to say we all here are very ignorant except umm.. so please relax without feeling all senti (Is it that people who comment on others in a belittling manner seldom have the same patience to even accept the same flavor of commentary about themselves, if it is a comment about my or anyone's level of knowledge, sister you should not be offended if people point out the same to you, afterall there is no judgment going on, but if i point out somebody's error, I am never offended when they point out mine, so if you call everyone else ignorant fine, you can't be exclusive to the same observation ) Anyhow I wasn't bashing you, no harsh feelings or nothing personal confused kuri, I discuss only people's view, that is not to say that I bash them or intend to.

It is just that Dir forums have a lot of responsibility attached, you may have noticed that most of us take some time to post a reply to these questions because you don't want to misquote anything or be wrong anywhere, it seemed a bit contradictory when you post a doubtful comment in the " the Quran was changed" thread, and then come here and announce that, no shias dont believe that Quran was changed.

I may have been wrong, but I quoted what I have observed over several years, living side by side in shia communities, most of them don't believe that Quran was changed, but there seem to be few who do say that along with their grand scholars( google the shia scholars on this, you'll find out, shia common people say that they don't believe it but their books which are held in high esteem by all their scholars state otherwise, offcorse people will always refer to the original source of knowledge when they have to give references to something, maybe those shias don't know what is their in their core dogma books and the fact is never really projected out of those books, who knows , If you allow I'll send you the link of one of the scholars who said it.)

Peace.

 

[JacobEzra.]

JW; If Islam became "westernized" would it take on more moderate and secular ways, as Judaism and some sects of Christianity has?