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A Word on Political Correctness VS Free Speech

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
And as it turns out, because I have Asperger's Syndrome, I faced MASSIVE bullying throughout my entire school years. Nearly every single day. I also, therefore, do have pretty low self-esteem.

See now that is a legitimate reason for being hurt by words. I mean speaking as a "brown person" who grew up during the aftermath of 9/11 it wasn't exactly a picnic. Of course I had the ability to insult them in two languages which I found amusing. But I learnt a long time ago that the moment you care about what they have to say over your own opinion of yourself, is the moment they win. Do not let those morons win. Don't listen to them. What matters is how you feel about yourself. No one is perfect, no one is free of insecurity. Maybe you need some help, like I don't know. But you need to find a way to be okay with you. Which I hope you have found. And I do mean that.
I might be brash and blunt, but underneath the veneer of apathy I am not actually some heartless *******. Though perhaps the "PC Police" disagree?

That first one has never been anything more than dismissive, ableist elitism, and frankly should be forgotten; the second one is just... silly. Though if that's truly how you experience this kind of activism, it sure demonstrates the power our words have over you. "ZOMG!! It's the PC police!! Shut them up before they destroy you and your family!!"

Well again, I am not against PC. I mean unless they are the ****ing Sith and view anyone even slightly questioning of their tactics as their enemy?
But there needs to be a limit. You can't just dismantle language entirely, then we'd have Newsspeak *shudders*

Yeah I don't know. I see value in it. Do not let mere words have the power to get you down. As the Imp from Game of Thrones once said, (and I'm paraphrasing here)"Never forget what you are. The world won't. Wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you."
I think that is a very wise way to live life. We will always have bullies, there will always be people who are bullied. And whilst I can certainly agree that we should be doing something to combat it, at the same time, I don't know if we ever will win that war. So arm people with armor, help them overcome the lies bullies tell them. Empower them, don't victimize them.
How is that bad? There's not one solution to fix everything like PC likes to pretend it is. We still need debates, we still need discussion. We still need the ability to point out the flaws in the PC Police. Because we always need to keep power in check, lest it goes down the path of "absolute power" so to speak.

How do you know the bulk of people you see aren't regularly having such breakdowns at home, away from your sight? Our culture does, after all, tell us to keep face while in public, and yet depression and anxiety have basically become epidemic, especially among younger folks.

If you knew the people I see you would never even think of asking that question.
And why has depression and anxiety become an epidemic? Is it because society also tells them that words literally can hurt them? Is it because we have a tendency to shield children to an extent that they no longer can loose or face any disappointment and thus they are unable to form healthy coping strategies for.....well life?
I'm not saying that is the underlying cause. But it could be one of the many myriad of causes that can explain such an epidemic. I mean PC is good, but like everything in this world, it's not without it's potential drawbacks.

Of course since I pointed out a potential flaw the PC Police will label me a bigot? Cie La Vie, I guess.

And I have sufferend anxiety attacks and emotional breakdowns in public. At work, even.

And I, like I'm sure most people on both sides, hope that you sought out professional help and are able to live your life to the best of your ability.

Course to expect everyone to walk on eggshells isn't the best solution. And I learnt that from a shrink my school sent me to after the death of my father. And I'm sorry, I have to agree with her.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
What? You think that words can actually hurt people? You actually think that people are so fragile, so absolutely weak minded that it is your sworn duty to protect them like little children? Pretty condescending, if you ask me. A curry muncher. Or A goat ****er if you prefer. How about a turban wearing rag head? A spicy smelling Indian ****. Go ahead, see what other insults you can call me. Have at it, mate. I'm an adult, I am not afraid of words. I do not give them that much power. So come at me, bro. Let's see what you can do to wound me with your oh so powerful words. I'm legit curious to see what your words can actually do to me.

Oh, but because I don't think people are fragile enough to be utterly destroyed by some idiotic insults I'm a knuckle dragging moron who will use "that's so gay?" (Trust me, my friends have come up with far worse slang than that. Helped along by our very flamboyant queer friends. Example, that's as gay as aids mate.)

This is exactly the crap I was talking about. Political Correctness is so quick to jump to conclusions, so fast to have a knee jerk reaction that instead of having a logical discussion about these problems, any and all dissent is met with you evil SEXIST/HOMOPHOBE/RACIST etc.

And people wonder why there's a pushback against this oversensitive nonsense.


It is not condescending to draw boundaries beyond which insults are considered bullying. Shaming someone solely based on their race, sexual orientation, gender, religion, etc., is bullying. Yes, there are Black people who call each other the N-word, and yes, there are homosexuals who don't mind mind using the word "gay" as an insult. I myself, an Arab, sometimes jokingly refer to myself as a terrorist to mock the stereotype that Arabs are terrorists. That's different from giving everyone social free rein to use such insults in a mean-spirited manner.

I'm not interested in some childish "challenge" to see how many insults I can hurl at someone. I have my own qualms with modern liberalism, but I don't advocate racism, homophobia, or sexism in the name of opposing political correctness. Being aware of others' feelings is not necessarily a bad thing as long as they don't cause you any harm. You are free to use bigoted terminology as a way of "reclaiming" such words, but by no means are you to be exempted from criticism or consequences for doing so.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Shoes on the other foot. How to respond?

Tell them to woman up!

On another note:

I have some gay friends, but I also have some homophobic friends. Some of my gay friends are always shocked to learn that some of my other friends might be homophobic.

'They're homophobic?'

'Yep'.

'Well they shouldn't be.'

'Well they are.'

'Well they should stop.'

'Well they're not.'

'Well they should.'

'Well you go and tell them that.'

I mean these people aren't psychopaths or anything, they don't wait in the bushes with crossbows for gay people to walk past. They just don't like it, and that's the deal.

And they're perfectly free to do so whether I or anyone else agrees with it or not. And they're free to call a gay person derogatory names...but the moment they do they should be prepared to be held accountable to that. Not that they're likely to do so, of course. But that is, essentially, the spirit of freedom as it is today.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The one "politically correct" term I despise most is "Islamophobia." More often than not, a lot of Muslims and, ironically, a lot of liberals use it to shut down any criticism of Islam and to treat mainstream Islam with kid gloves. This is different from supporting the use of terms that are genuinely bigoted in nature like the F-slur or the N-word just because one believes that not using them implies being politically correct—which in and of itself is not a bad thing, in my opinion. It is only a bad thing when it is unjustified.

My arguments here are not about embracing political correctness bar none; they are about holding people accountable to their words and prejudices. If someone wants to be "politically incorrect" and trumpet it, they can be my guest, but they they will have to hold responsibility for what they say.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
See now that is a legitimate reason for being hurt by words. I mean speaking as a "brown person" who grew up during the aftermath of 9/11 it wasn't exactly a picnic. Of course I had the ability to insult them in two languages which I found amusing. But I learnt a long time ago that the moment you care about what they have to say over your own opinion of yourself, is the moment they win. Do not let those morons win. Don't listen to them. What matters is how you feel about yourself. No one is perfect, no one is free of insecurity. Maybe you need some help, like I don't know. But you need to find a way to be okay with you. Which I hope you have found. And I do mean that.
I might be brash and blunt, but underneath the veneer of apathy I am not actually some heartless *******. Though perhaps the "PC Police" disagree?

Perhaps stop thinking of them as "police", even metaphorically.

I do appreciate your sentiment, and I don't think you're heartless. But what you don't seem to realize is that you're basically saying "just ignore them", and it seems you have no idea how invalidating and dismissive that can really be.

When you come up with it on your own, it can be empowering. But when you try telling others to do likewise, it can make them feel alone, unloved, and very disempowered: the exact opposite of what you intended. I speak from direct experience.

Well again, I am not against PC. I mean unless they are the ****ing Sith and view anyone even slightly questioning of their tactics as their enemy?
But there needs to be a limit. You can't just dismantle language entirely, then we'd have Newsspeak *shudders*

Trust me. I know. I have some problems of my own with some activists' call to completely dismantle certain entire aspects of language; not necessarily because I disagree with the sentiment, but because it's so impractical that it's a battle lost before its won.

Heck, I don't really like the term "politically correct", since I see that as, well, a political maneuver, not a genuine attempt at "treating people with respect."

But I don't think speaking out against the casual use of slurs while in public spaces is akin to such dismantlings. It's not about being "PC", it's about basic respect. We're not asking people to stop using the word "bad" because in Old English, it was a slur against femininity among males. That context is long gone from our culture. But the "f-word" (not the one that means sex) hasn't lost that context.

Yeah I don't know. I see value in it. Do not let mere words have the power to get you down. As the Imp from Game of Thrones once said, (and I'm paraphrasing here)"Never forget what you are. The world won't. Wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you."

Yes, I remember that. And if I remember a certain other scene correctly (personally haven't watched the show all the way, since grimdark stuff isn't really my thing right now), it would seem even that philosophy failed him in the end.

I think that is a very wise way to live life. We will always have bullies, there will always be people who are bullied. And whilst I can certainly agree that we should be doing something to combat it, at the same time, I don't know if we ever will win that war. So arm people with armor, help them overcome the lies bullies tell them. Empower them, don't victimize them.
How is that bad? There's not one solution to fix everything like PC likes to pretend it is. We still need debates, we still need discussion. We still need the ability to point out the flaws in the PC Police. Because we always need to keep power in check, lest it goes down the path of "absolute power" so to speak.

At the same time, it's not a universal solution. Keeping with the armor metaphor, not all armor fits all bodies, and neither can all arms wield any type of weapon. It's best to see what would work best for a given person, first.

Otherwise, they won't feel armed. They might feel blamed. And either way, they'd be right. If someone feels like your solution is just playing in to their problems, then it's best to trust that they know what they're talking about, and treat them accordingly.

If you knew the people I see you would never even think of asking that question.

Let me clarify, then: strangers you see on the street.

And why has depression and anxiety become an epidemic? Is it because society also tells them that words literally can hurt them? Is it because we have a tendency to shield children to an extent that they no longer can loose or face any disappointment and thus they are unable to form healthy coping strategies for.....well life?
I'm not saying that is the underlying cause. But it could be one of the many myriad of causes that can explain such an epidemic. I mean PC is good, but like everything in this world, it's not without it's potential drawbacks.

Of course since I pointed out a potential flaw the PC Police will label me a bigot? Cie La Vie, I guess.

And I, like I'm sure most people on both sides, hope that you sought out professional help and are able to live your life to the best of your ability.

Course to expect everyone to walk on eggshells isn't the best solution. And I learnt that from a shrink my school sent me to after the death of my father. And I'm sorry, I have to agree with her.

I'm still in therapy, have been for about 3 years. Some time beforehand, I'd developed social anxiety to the point where even now, I can't hold down a "normal" job. I'm 28, still living with, and to a large degree still dependent on, my mom, waiting on a second interview with a potential part-time job tomorrow, 5-7 hours minimum wage. That I'm potentially getting that job is a MAJOR breakthrough for me that I'm personally proud and scared of.

I have my own pet guesses as to why depression and anxiety have become epidemic, but at the moment, it's the case regardless. Therefore, when in public spaces (which includes most places on the internet), it's best to use non-hurtful language as best as possible. Personally, I don't care what words you use among your friends in private settings, as long as it's okay with everyone present.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps stop thinking of them as "police", even metaphorically.

Well I don't actually. But everyone else on this thread called them the PC Police, so I just assumed that that was their slang-y moniker.
I do associate them with the Perpetually Offended Brigade, though. But even then, only indirectly.
Again, I am not against PC, I am against giving PC unlimited power. I like to question things, I am curious by nature. But when my questions are always met with some variation of "You're just a bigot defending insults" it sort of makes you weary of the people you're questioning. Because that's an indication that they think that their power should go unchallenged. Which makes them seem like dictators.
*looks pointedly at the SJW crowd who always calls even the slightest of dissent done by some flavor of bigots.*

I do appreciate your sentiment, and I don't think you're heartless. But what you don't seem to realize is that you're basically saying "just ignore them", and it seems you have no idea how invalidating and dismissive that can really be.

I am not just saying ignore them. I am saying that instead of lamenting over insults constantly, we tone down our response. Obviously we would still punish bullies, but societal reactions can actually influence children's reactions. The more outrageous adults react to a situation the more a child will think that that is the appropriate response. An example would be sexual abuse. Society goes absolutely and positively nuts over it. And it puts a lot of expectations (without realizing it) on the abused child. But all they're doing is ensuring that the reaction is exacerbated or that children who do not react strongly are even more confused. You get me?

I'm saying we find ways to boost self esteem in the bullied. Now granted I literally have no idea how to do that, but I'm not a shrink. So surely there are some psychological strategies which can achieve that, right?

Sorry I have to cut this short as I thought I had more time before I had to go to work. Can I just ask for your patience?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That first one has never been anything more than dismissive, ableist elitism, and frankly should be forgotten;
The first one is believed and promoted by people who weren't targeted themselves, and who didn't get to experience first hand just how hurtful and painful words can be.
And of course the opposite of "sticks and stones" is "Enjoy the Silence," which I have found to be far more true than "stones."
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Trust me. I know. I have some problems of my own with some activists' call to completely dismantle certain entire aspects of language; not necessarily because I disagree with the sentiment, but because it's so impractical that it's a battle lost before its won.

Sorry, should get better at my time keeping. Anyway.
I think I just have a gut reaction of ZOMG NO!!! Mostly due, I assume, to having read 1984. Now the very idea of tampering with language in order to restrict thoughts or sentiments just gives me the creeps. Even if it might be good. I think I just have a visceral emotional reaction to the idea now. Like what can you do, I guess?

Heck, I don't really like the term "politically correct", since I see that as, well, a political maneuver, not a genuine attempt at "treating people with respect."

Hmm I don't think I am very versed in the politics behind Political Correctness, tbh. It just always kind of existed around me, well for us 90s kids/millennials at least.

But I don't think speaking out against the casual use of slurs while in public spaces is akin to such dismantlings. It's not about being "PC", it's about basic respect. We're not asking people to stop using the word "bad" because in Old English, it was a slur against femininity among males. That context is long gone from our culture. But the "f-word" (not the one that means sex) hasn't lost that context.

Well Americans do seem oddly oversensitive to swear words. More so than other Western cultures. I don't mean that insultingly to any American here, just an observation.

I'm against randomly calling people slurs. That's just rude at the very least. But what I am calling into question is what if the current strategy (ie reclaiming the language) is actually not achieving anything? Now that doesn't go for every slur you can think of. But okay, example. Around here the f word ending in an "ot" used to denigrate gay people is being used less and less to target gay people. Instead it has shifted towards a slang term to call someone out for their ridiculously stupid or ugly behavior. Now this is regional thing, used more so by the younger crowd (especially gay youth.) But it actually does lessen the chance of a gay person being on the receiving end of that slur, because it is evolving. Like language is supposed to do. If you hold onto a word too tightly, it can only stagnate and perhaps make matters worse.
Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm saying instead of allowing words to be used as weapons, allow them to morph into something else. Allow discourse to occur without screaming bigot the moment anyone even breathes the "N word" for example.
I mean you can't even discuss Huckleberry Finn without being judged a racist these days, which is actually kind of ironic given it's original contempt of racism. Well at least slavery anyway.

Yes, I remember that. And if I remember a certain other scene correctly (personally haven't watched the show all the way, since grimdark stuff isn't really my thing right now), it would seem even that philosophy failed him in the end.

Ehhhh. Kind of? Not really?
Remember the world of GoT is a hell of a lot harsher than ours could possibly hope to be. (Speaking of the West specifically.) Especially with PC ever present, looming over us. People always mocked him, sure. Sometimes it did get to him. Sure. But he always used that as fuel to survive, even if the odds said that he would surely die. He used it to make himself stronger. So I would contend that his philosophy saved him more than once. Though his father seemed the only one able to actually legitimately wound him. I'd go into more detail, but I don't want to accidentally spoil you, if you ever wish to see the show or read the books in the future. Let's just say, Jerry Springer much?? and leave it at that.

At the same time, it's not a universal solution. Keeping with the armor metaphor, not all armor fits all bodies, and neither can all arms wield any type of weapon. It's best to see what would work best for a given person, first.

Otherwise, they won't feel armed. They might feel blamed. And either way, they'd be right. If someone feels like your solution is just playing in to their problems, then it's best to trust that they know what they're talking about, and treat them accordingly.

And I do agree with that assessment.
There is no one size fits all solution to anything in this world. But I am saying that we need more in our arsenal against bullies/bigots than just political correctness. See PC likes to pretend that by making it taboo to "be mean/rude/offensive" to people is the be all and end all to all their problems. But it's not. Not really. All it does is broaden our definition of what constitutes polite conversation. PC doesn't address concerns about mental health. It doesn't do anything to build healthy coping strategies for ****ty situations. It just enables (SOME) people to fall into a cycle of perpetual victim hood.
Again, I'll use sexual abuse as an example. Only this time, let's be a tad more specific and say it's rape victims/survivors. Now of course, a person who is raped will need time and possibly professional help to come to terms with and move forward from this unspeakable horror. And they will do this at their own pace. At the same time they will all eventually need to deal with what's called "Triggers." The best way to do this is find a healthy coping strategy, either yourself or with professional help (one on one, in a group or both. Whatever.) Now this whole "trigger warning" shenanigans done by the PC brigade, I kind of question it's helpfulness. In a High School I could kind of get behind it. In a University however? Ehhhh. Maybe, like really common or extreme ones. However one can sort those out. But not to the extent it seems to be going towards.
Uni is optional and thus is not supposed to be your personal psychiatrist. In Uni, you are an adult, you need to be able to cope like an adult. If you need to, take time off in order to be able to deal healthily with triggers. Like I will absolutely not hold it against anyone who takes a year off because they happen to be raped or sexually assaulted. Or if they need to speak to the campus' mental health faculty every single day. Like if that's what you need to do, fair enough. But this whole "trigger warning" everything is absolutely, imo, making things worse. Instead of being confronted with this and therefore having a need to be able to find a healthy coping strategy, people are being warned before they even open a book these days. Like what? You as a survivor need to find a healthy strategy to deal with encountering them. Because guess what? They will always be there. That's just how life is. If you want a life for yourself free of recurring trauma, you need to deal with triggers eventually. I mean it's not healthy to continuously have to be traumatized to the extreme every single time you face a trigger. But now with the option of completely opting out of having to face any sort of trigger whatsoever, you get people who will never be challenged. And people need to be challenged. Even people who have experienced trauma. Because we need to grow. Stagnating people with this ability to avoid being "triggered" or "offended" I think is allowing (again SOME) people to opt out of having to actually grow up.

Let me clarify, then: strangers you see on the street.

People I see on the street could be deranged serial killers for all I know. Should I then treat every stranger I meet with this in mind?

I'm still in therapy, have been for about 3 years. Some time beforehand, I'd developed social anxiety to the point where even now, I can't hold down a "normal" job. I'm 28, still living with, and to a large degree still dependent on, my mom, waiting on a second interview with a potential part-time job tomorrow, 5-7 hours minimum wage. That I'm potentially getting that job is a MAJOR breakthrough for me that I'm personally proud and scared of.

Well, I hope your job interview goes well. And I do hope that you build for yourself a place in life where you are happy and healthy. Hang in there, as they say. (Yeah, I'm not too good with the comforting speeches. I don't always understand emotions very well. Sorry.)

I have my own pet guesses as to why depression and anxiety have become epidemic, but at the moment, it's the case regardless. Therefore, when in public spaces (which includes most places on the internet), it's best to use non-hurtful language as best as possible. Personally, I don't care what words you use among your friends in private settings, as long as it's okay with everyone present.

Whilst I and most people are behind that sentiment (perhaps with the exception of places like YouTube or whatever) where exactly do you draw the line? For myself that is using slurs or being insulting to people. Unless it's obvious you are being sarcastic or using humor. (We Aussies are a bawdy bunch.)
But then you get all these people with all sorts of ideas of what constitutes being "disrespectful." Everything from saying Happy Holidays to disagreeing with their opinion. See people like myself want PC to draw a definite and clear line in the sand on where they stand with being "politically correct" as a society. I mean some leeway of course. But we want PC to be reasonable, to be concise and clear. But for some reason that gets us labelled as "bigots." Hmmmm.

See I think there's far more nuance to this PC debate than people wanting a respectful society on one side and bigots wanting to freely insult gay/black/Jew etc people on the other.
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
It is not condescending to draw boundaries beyond which insults are considered bullying. Shaming someone solely based on their race, sexual orientation, gender, religion, etc., is bullying. Yes, there are Black people who call each other the N-word, and yes, there are homosexuals who don't mind mind using the word "gay" as an insult. I myself, an Arab, sometimes jokingly refer to myself as a terrorist to mock the stereotype that Arabs are terrorists. That's different from giving everyone social free rein to use such insults in a mean-spirited manner.

I'm not interested in some childish "challenge" to see how many insults I can hurl at someone. I have my own qualms with modern liberalism, but I don't advocate racism, homophobia, or sexism in the name of opposing political correctness. Being aware of others' feelings is not necessarily a bad thing as long as they don't cause you any harm. You are free to use bigoted terminology as a way of "reclaiming" such words, but by no means are you to be exempted from criticism or consequences for doing so.

Neither do I. I am not your enemy, I am not a racist homophobic ****-burger. I am absolutely against people using slurs to insult people. How many times do I have to say that? I am simply calling into question the current strategies used and pointing out what I see as flaws. How in the hell does that make me a bigot? I am trying to point out potential flaws so that it can be examined instead of just going along with whatever the common PC Zeitgeist says. I question things, that's just what I do.

Look from my perspective (and this could have something to do with my life, personally, if you get me) if you think that I cannot handle some nasty words, then that tells me that you don't think I'm capable as an adult to properly deal with insults.
I find that condescending to be honest. Though again, that could be because of what I have experienced.
*Looks pointedly at idiots trying to tell me what to find offensive.*

For example I don't need the "PC Police" telling me that a meme saying that a perfectly made roti equals an arranged marriage and an oddly shaped awful looking roti equals a love marriage is supposed to elicit in me some sort of offense or anger (mostly from middle class "white folks" who couldn't tell me the difference between a puri or a roti. Ahem ahem ahem!!) Because I understand the cultural connotations of that meme and I can understand the humor behind it. If you don't, then don't share it or like it on facebook. That's perfectly fine. But to call me, a half Desi girl, racist towards Indians because I found it humorous is a bit rich.

(Yeah, sorry that happened to me today and yes I am a bit angry at being called a racist slag for no real reason. But I am far more angry that I was called a racist by people who seem an awful lot like racists to me. Being a PC activist is one thing. But I would hope that PC activists would have the common decency to at least do their homework on whatever culture they are trying to protect.)

If you paint every single person who is "against the PC police" as a bunch of bigots, you lose nuance. You alienate dissenters who are still on your side. Because you've just pretty much opened up with "you're nothing but a raging bigot on the wrong side of history." And then wonder why there's such a backlash.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
so...some of you got picked on......boo hoo.....boo hoo.....

I was a little skinny kid that knew all the answers.
teacher's pet by default.
and having a Jewish name in a catholic school didn't help....

and of course.....going to the grocery store just outside the housing projects....
as we did live IN the projects.....

oy!
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
My two cents. You can use whatever words you like but if you choose to be an ***hole then everyone has a right to call you out for the ***hole you are.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Jeez, we have rules and regulations HERE at RF to follow for the benefit of healthy and respectful discussion and debate. Don't attack personally, and don't troll with blatant misrepresentations. You'll get dinged for it.

Doesn't make RF the PC police, though some folks would disagree. Some would love love love to "tell it like it is" in regards to groups of people and their level of acceptable value in humanity. They know it might be offensive, and they don't care. Most of those people end up on the Ban List.

Our gift to you...*curtsies*
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The one "politically correct" term I despise most is "Islamophobia."
This one I think is interesting. I have seen Islamophobia, and rather frequently. And it gets so bad here that even Sikhs have been misidentified and killed by people who thought they were Muslim. Even though I'm white and visually obviously not a Muslim, I still see Islamaphobia on almost a daily basis. And I'm not talking about trying to silence criticisms, but assuming all Muslims are terrorists who hate America for our freedoms (yes, there are many who actually believe that here in America), that all Muslims want to kill infidels, and other things that are fractally wrong.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Neither do I. I am not your enemy, I am not a racist homophobic ****-burger. I am absolutely against people using slurs to insult people. How many times do I have to say that? I am simply calling into question the current strategies used and pointing out what I see as flaws. How in the hell does that make me a bigot? I am trying to point out potential flaws so that it can be examined instead of just going along with whatever the common PC Zeitgeist says. I question things, that's just what I do.

Look from my perspective (and this could have something to do with my life, personally, if you get me) if you think that I cannot handle some nasty words, then that tells me that you don't think I'm capable as an adult to properly deal with insults.
I find that condescending to be honest. Though again, that could be because of what I have experienced.
*Looks pointedly at idiots trying to tell me what to find offensive.*

For example I don't need the "PC Police" telling me that a meme saying that a perfectly made roti equals an arranged marriage and an oddly shaped awful looking roti equals a love marriage is supposed to elicit in me some sort of offense or anger (mostly from middle class "white folks" who couldn't tell me the difference between a puri or a roti. Ahem ahem ahem!!) Because I understand the cultural connotations of that meme and I can understand the humor behind it. If you don't, then don't share it or like it on facebook. That's perfectly fine. But to call me, a half Desi girl, racist towards Indians because I found it humorous is a bit rich.

(Yeah, sorry that happened to me today and yes I am a bit angry at being called a racist slag for no real reason. But I am far more angry that I was called a racist by people who seem an awful lot like racists to me. Being a PC activist is one thing. But I would hope that PC activists would have the common decency to at least do their homework on whatever culture they are trying to protect.)

If you paint every single person who is "against the PC police" as a bunch of bigots, you lose nuance. You alienate dissenters who are still on your side. Because you've just pretty much opened up with "you're nothing but a raging bigot on the wrong side of history." And then wonder why there's such a backlash.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I'm an Arab, and I'm well-acquainted with stereotypes about Arabs. I can handle insults like "camel jockey" and "sand [N-word]" without being too emotionally affected. That doesn't mean using those insults is justified or should be accepted. While I'm not going to break down over some racist insults' being hurled at me or my people, I will call out the people using those slurs as bigots or enablers of bigotry.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
This one I think is interesting. I have seen Islamophobia, and rather frequently. And it gets so bad here that even Sikhs have been misidentified and killed by people who thought they were Muslim. Even though I'm white and visually obviously not a Muslim, I still see Islamaphobia on almost a daily basis. And I'm not talking about trying to silence criticisms, but assuming all Muslims are terrorists who hate America for our freedoms (yes, there are many who actually believe that here in America), that all Muslims want to kill infidels, and other things that are fractally wrong.

I mainly have an issue with the way the term is often used in a way that is inaccurate to its etymology. "Islamophobia" literally means "fear of Islam," and... well, I don't think fear of Islam is at all irrational or bigoted. In fact, I think it is quite a healthy and sound position. Hatred of Muslims is a different thing, and it should never, ever be confused with hatred or rejection of Islam. The way the term "Islamophobia" is frequently used results in confusion of the two a lot of the time, which is where the extremists and Islamic apologists find a loophole to paint criticism, fear, or hatred of Islam as bigotry and hatred toward Muslims.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I mainly have an issue with the way the term is often used in a way that is inaccurate to its etymology. "Islamophobia" literally means "fear of Islam," and... well, I don't think fear of Islam is at all irrational or bigoted. In fact, I think it is quite a healthy and sound position. Hatred of Muslims is a different thing, and it should never, ever be confused with hatred or rejection of Islam. The way the term "Islamophobia" is frequently used results in confusion of the two a lot of the time, which is where the extremists and Islamic apologists find a loophole to paint criticism, fear, or hatred of Islam as bigotry and hatred toward Muslims.
In regards to the semantics, I think it's because we're just lazy when it comes to words and knowing what they mean (such as how the words ultimate and disinterested are very frequently misused). Homophobia, for example, would literally mean a fear of homosexuals, but because we tend to not really care about what words actually mean and because we misuse them all the time the term "homophobia" has become a catch-all for a general reference for any fear, hatred, or prejudice against homosexuals. And we are so linguistically lazy, that sometimes instead of using "Islamophobia" in the manner you describe, some people just use the term "racist."
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
You are barking up the wrong tree. I'm an Arab, and I'm well-acquainted with stereotypes about Arabs. I can handle insults like "camel jockey" and "sand [N-word]" without being too emotionally affected. That doesn't mean using those insults is justified or should be accepted. While I'm not going to break down over some racist insults' being hurled at me or my people, I will call out the people using those slurs as bigots or enablers of bigotry.

As you should. But I am saying that the highly emotional reaction people have to words like the N word or whatever the hell other slurs there is probably stifling actual legitimate discussion. We need to step back, look at the word properly, perhaps address some concerns and hopefully create a better dialogue than ones that are going on right now.
Take a deep breath and talk to one and other. Instead of lobbying these stupid insults at one and other. "You racist" "You ******" You homophobe" "You ******" etc etc etc.
Sometimes it's not always as black and white as PC vs Bigots. Sometimes the people on the other side might have a reason and are using shock tactics to get your attention. Or because they have been called racist for so long that they might as well go all out. Because what's the difference.
PC is a nice concept, but it's inability for flexibility or it's tendency to avoid a more nuanced debate such as a person using black humor to deal with a crisis, in favor of just labeling everyone even remotely against it as "bigots" does tend to create more enemies than allies.

For example. People are afraid of the immigrant crisis, not always because they are racist or jingoist ********, but because they are concerned for the safety of their fellow citizens. They bring up a valid point that while not all Muslims or whatever are rapists, but perhaps there needs to be some sort of dialogue happening to address the cultural differences between lax Europe and super strict Sharia Law places. That's a valid point. But instead they are labelled as racist or Islamaphobic. It's the same when someone says, well look at the actions of this mob of people (who just so happen to be black and/or vocal members of BLM or whatever the hell movement is around) aren't those actions appalling? But they are immediately called racists. Well if PC expects people to be called out for using slurs, then surely they expect people to be held accountable for their own actions instead of hiding behind "racism/sexism/intolerance" to shut down people who call them out for them. I mean right?
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
the problem is not the spoken word.....
it is the people using a spoken word as a weapon.

I can do harm.....and not once use a token insult.

do I look like a Muslim?

anyone want to mention overweight lazy asses?....
 
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