Abandon All Hope

[Shadow Wolf]

Would you mind clarifying your statements here?

You ask what happens if Lucifer wins. To those of us on the Left, we side with figures such as Lucifer and Satan. What society considers good and bad, moral and immoral, we are unconcerned with. We are unconcerned about anyone judging us, including god. And because you called us "cowards," it is very unlikely that you actually live according to your desires. To take a guess, I would say you are probably one who would say "but it's illegal" before doing something. You don't strike me as the type to say damn what everybody else thinks, and break some serious folkways, norms, mores, values, and norms. We on the Left do not shirk responsibility, but it is of no concern if you do not approve of what we do.

 

[Riverwolf]

Exactly. This is one of the things which troubles me about a lot of people who call themselves Strong Atheists. It does not seem to be enough that they have faith something does not exist, they seem offended that others have faith those things either might or do exist.

Does it matter to me if someone believes in faries? No. Their belief does not offend or otherwise disturb me. While I am reasonably sure faries do not exist, I recognize that is still my belief. They very well might exist.

I've heard that in some cases, more aggressive atheists (that is, when atheists are real ***holes to theists and the very notion of theism) are like that partially because there's a part of them that really (sometimes desperately) wants to believe, so they're hurt by the reasons why they feel they "can't" and/or "shouldn't", and therefore get really anxious around people who do believe. I can say it's for that reason (among others) that I can be pretty aggressive towards "one-world" ideologies.

Of course, there could be plenty of other reasons, such as feeling threatened by believers because of those "religion inherently causes evil and suffering" or "religion inherently stifles progress" myths that are so prevalent.

 

[ThirtyThree]

You ask what happens if Lucifer wins. To those of us on the Left, we side with figures such as Lucifer and Satan. What society considers good and bad, moral and immoral, we are unconcerned with.

What society considers good, bad, moral and immoral are all things I consider. If I desire to do something society considers bad or immoral, then I will weigh the consequences, especially if it is illegal, and decide whether or not accomplishing my desire is worth the consequences. If it is, I proceed.

In regard to Yahweh or him possibly judging me after my body dies, that no longer comes into my decision making process. It did once, when I consciously chose my deity. Beyond that, it is completely irrelevant now because the choice is made and will never be unmade.

We are unconcerned about anyone judging us, including god. And because you called us "cowards," it is very unlikely that you actually live according to your desires. To take a guess, I would say you are probably one who would say "but it's illegal" before doing something.

Indeed, I weigh the consequences of actions prior to acting.

You don't strike me as the type to say damn what everybody else thinks, and break some serious folkways, norms, mores, values, and norms. We on the Left do not shirk responsibility, but it is of no concern if you do not approve of what we do.

No, I do not challenge norms, morals, values and so on just to do so. I also do not shirk responsibility. I am responsible for everything I do.

 

[rusra02]

I think you are making the same decision that Adam did. You are aware of how that worked out for him. I believe we have neither the right nor the wisdom to successfully live without God's direction. (Jeremiah 10:23) Jehovah does not make mistakes nor regret any decision he makes. (1 Samuel 15:29)

 

[dave_]

That is very doubtful. How can this god be ruling us, when this god seems to be nothing more than another god in a long line of gods that were created by man in order to look and even act like man?

If you are LHP, as you claim to be, this should not be a problem. Unshackle yourself, live as you want to live, and tell god to **** off if you do something he doesn't like. (but again, this is doubtful, because the man god just so happens to hate the same things man hates).

I am trying.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I think you are making the same decision that Adam did. You are aware of how that worked out for him. I believe we have neither the right nor the wisdom to successfully live without God's direction. (Jeremiah 10:23) Jehovah does not make mistakes nor regret any decision he makes. (1 Samuel 15:29)

It worked out fine. I am here living my life.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think you are making the same decision that Adam did. You are aware of how that worked out for him.

Yeah, it worked out pretty well. He got to live a full life with a variety of experiences, rather than in sheltered stagnation.

 

[Deidre]

Whether one is a believer (of the Abrahamic version of God) or not...life is what we make of it. I was an atheist, and led a great life, just like I lead a great life now. But, when I was an atheist, my grandmother died. She meant the world to me, but she would have died...even if I was a Christian when she died last year. The tragedy still would have happened. So, to believe or not to believe...it doesn't change the sufferings in life. I don't believe that God orchestrates painful situations, rather IMO, He is there to comfort me through them. When I was an atheist, that aspect of life was hard for me, being honest. Logically, atheism made sense to me...it was a natural conclusion ...but, emotionally, it was hard to process the pains and trials of life. Maybe some people are better at being an atheist than others. lol ^_^

 

[JustWondering]

I've heard that in some cases, more aggressive atheists (that is, when atheists are real ***holes to theists and the very notion of theism) are like that partially because there's a part of them that really (sometimes desperately) wants to believe, so they're hurt by the reasons why they feel they "can't" and/or "shouldn't", and therefore get really anxious around people who do believe. I can say it's for that reason (among others) that I can be pretty aggressive towards "one-world" ideologies.

Of course, there could be plenty of other reasons, such as feeling threatened by believers because of those "religion inherently causes evil and suffering" or "religion inherently stifles progress" myths that are so prevalent.

Or it is just frustration with people who believe in fictional characters and obviously made up stories from thousands of years ago created by superstitious people like its real.

 

[JustWondering]

Whether one is a believer (of the Abrahamic version of God) or not...life is what we make of it. I was an atheist, and led a great life, just like I lead a great life now. But, when I was an atheist, my grandmother died. She meant the world to me, but she would have died...even if I was a Christian when she died last year. The tragedy still would have happened. So, to believe or not to believe...it doesn't change the sufferings in life. I don't believe that God orchestrates painful situations, rather IMO, He is there to comfort me through them. When I was an atheist, that aspect of life was hard for me, being honest. Logically, atheism made sense to me...it was a natural conclusion ...but, emotionally, it was hard to process the pains and trials of life. Maybe some people are better at being an atheist than others. lol ^_^

I agree, everyone is wired differently.

 

[Riverwolf]

Or it is just frustration with people who believe in fictional characters and obviously made up stories from thousands of years ago created by superstitious people like its real.

A frustration I don't understand when it's outside the context of feeling threatened.

Besides, I don't buy into that oversimplified, and as I understand, long outdated, view of organic mythological development. Nor do I buy into the elitism, classism, and ableism inherent in the various negative statements I've seen throughout my life about "superstitious people"; at least, I try not to, being a recovering intellectual elitist, myself.

 

[JustWondering]

I do not believe such creatures exist and never once stated I did. I lack belief in such creatures. Does that mean I claim such creatures absolutely do not exist? No. They might. I am open to the possibility of their existence.

This argument is extremely flimsy. When there is NO evidence for a fantastical creature or being it is completely logical to deny their existence. Your belief system does not involve logic or evidence, it involves believing in things simply because you were raised to and you don't question it, or you WANT to. I'm sure you would love to think that I'm an atheist for irrational and emotional reasons but that's not the case. There is simply no evidence to support the existence of a god that has any interest in humanity. If some kind of creator exists it must be apathetic towards life on earth, simply due to its utter lack of involvement in our affairs.

 

[Riverwolf]

This argument

It's not an argument at all. It's an attempt at clarification.

 

[JustWondering]

A frustration I don't understand when it's outside the context of feeling threatened.

Human beings get frustrated sometimes and people are usually afraid when threatened not frustrated. Just imagine having a conversation with a grown adult who still believes in Santa Claus if you're having trouble understanding my POV. From my POV, gods, and spirits were all made up and are fictional in nature.

Besides, I don't buy into that oversimplified, and as I understand, long outdated, view of organic mythological development. Nor do I buy into the elitism, classism, and ableism inherent in the various negative statements I've seen throughout my life about "superstitious people"; at least, I try not to, being a recovering intellectual elitist, myself.

So when someone doesn't buy into your belief system they are elitist and negative for speaking their mind?

 

[JustWondering]

It's not an argument at all. It's an attempt at clarification.

No, it is a flimsy argument that is attempting to portray that believing in things without ANY evidence to support said belief is logical when it is not.

 

[Riverwolf]

Human beings get frustrated sometimes and people are usually afraid when threatened not frustrated. Just imagine having a conversation with a grown adult who still believes in Santa Claus if you're having trouble understanding my POV.

Okay...

...

Nope. Still don't get it. I only feel mild confusion, and even some fascination, not frustration in that scenario. Though now we can add ageism to the mix, since belief in Santa Claus is so often associated with children.

Assuming a neurotypical adult, anyway.

The only times I feel frustrated with people who have beliefs that are different from mine aren't necessarily because of the beliefs themselves, but in aggressive presentations of those arguments. Which, as you might imagine, make me feel threatened, and therefore those presented beliefs get associated with aggressive (i.e., threatening) people.

So when someone doesn't buy into your belief system they are elitist and negative for speaking their mind?

Only when the not-buying-into-my-belief-system comes with it suggestions of inherent inferiority because of those beliefs. Such suggestions are often used in our fiction to depict poor people, children, other cultures (particularly hunter-gatherers and farming communities, or just polytheists in general), mentally ill people, neurodiverse people, etc. as a way to contrast their ignorant inferiority to our enlightened superiority.

Also consider that the vast bulk of insults in English are challenges to a person's intellectual competence. These are but a few indications that our overculture regards people who are perceived to be "ignorant" (and therefore "superstitious") as inherently inferior to people who are percieved to be "smart" (and therefore, supposedly, "not-superstitious").

No, it is a flimsy argument that is attempting to portray that believing in things without ANY evidence to support said belief is logical when it is not.

I didn't see that argument being made at all. Perhaps you could break it down and demonstrate where you're seeing that argument being made?

 

[ThirtyThree]

This argument is extremely flimsy. When there is NO evidence for a fantastical creature or being it is completely logical to deny their existence. Your belief system does not involve logic or evidence, it involves believing in things simply because you were raised to and you don't question it, or you WANT to. I'm sure you would love to think that I'm an atheist for irrational and emotional reasons but that's not the case. There is simply no evidence to support the existence of a god that has any interest in humanity. If some kind of creator exists it must be apathetic towards life on earth, simply due to its utter lack of involvement in our affairs.

Look, I can comprehend someone being an Atheist if they simply have not had experiences to, on some level and to some degree, prove the matters of Theism to them. What I can not grasp is the Atheist which outright claims mystical creatures, Supernals or God does not exist. Especially when they have no means to PROVE any of the above TO NOT EXIST. If the Atheist states, "There is no God." Then they BELIEVE "there is no God". Case closed. If you as an Atheist sleep better at night calling your belief other than a BELIEF, you are guilty of self deception.

 

[JustWondering]

Nope. Still don't get it. I only feel mild confusion, and even some fascination, not frustration in that scenario. Though now we can add ageism to the mix, since belief in Santa Claus is so often associated with children.

I explained myself clearly, so, the issue is probably that you don't want to get it.

The only times I feel frustrated with people who have beliefs that are different from mine aren't necessarily because of the beliefs themselves, but in aggressive presentations of those arguments. Which, as you might imagine, make me feel threatened, and therefore those presented beliefs get associated with aggressive (i.e., threatening) people.

This is a debate forum. If people expressing opposing opinions is threatening to you, why are you in the debate forums?

Only when the not-buying-into-my-belief-system comes with it suggestions of inherent inferiority because of those beliefs. Such suggestions are often used in our fiction to depict poor people, children, other cultures (particularly hunter-gatherers and farming communities), mentally ill people, neurodiverse people, etc. as a way to contrast their ignorant inferiority to our enlightened superiority.

Also consider that the vast bulk of insults in English are challenges to a person's intellectual competence. These are but a few indications that our overculture regards people who are perceived to be "ignorant" as inherently inferior to people who are percieved to be "smart".

If my blunt way of expressing my opinions and arguments offends, well, that's just the way I express myself. If you read more into it than what's actually there, I can't do much about that. Since I don't know anyone on this site in RL, I only respond to what is posted.

I didn't see that argument being made at all. Perhaps you could break it down and demonstrate where you're seeing that argument being made?

Our discussion began when 33 said I needed evidence to support my posts or I shouldn't post. I retorted by telling him to support his posts with evidence. After that point he began back pedaling. He tried to use faith as an excuse for being able to post what he wants without evidence to back it up and when that didn't fly he tried flimsy arguments that it was ok for him to post because he is "open" to the existence of things that have not been absolutely disproven.

 

[JustWondering]

Look, I can comprehend someone being an Atheist if they simply have not had experiences to, on some level and to some degree, prove the matters of Theism to them. What I can not grasp is the Atheist which outright claims mystical creatures, Supernals or God does not exist. Especially when they have no means to PROVE any of the above TO NOT EXIST. If the Atheist states, "There is no God." Then they BELIEVE "there is no God". Case closed. If you as an Atheist sleep better at night calling your belief other than a BELIEF, you are guilty of self deception.

It is not that hard to understand. My beliefs are supported by reality. I do not except the existence of mystical, invisible beings that have NO evidence supporting their existence. It is just simple logic and excepting reality for what it is.

 

[ThirtyThree]

It is not that hard to understand. My beliefs are supported by reality. I do not except the existence of mystical, invisible beings that have NO evidence supporting their existence. It is just simple logic and excepting reality for what it is.

Your beliefs are not simple logic. In fact, I will venture to state there is nothing logical about stating any of the above does not exist. You hold a position of faith. Accept that for what it is and admit you believe such things do not exist. You claim that you know these things simply do not exist, I challenge you to go prove it to the world. Go on, end religion.