Abolition of Alcohol

[oldbadger]

.........................Like one planet one people...........................

Ah! I didn't want to bring Bahai in to this, but that phrase is certainly Bahai based.
I feel quite sure that a Bahai government would ban alcohol to all.
Just another reason to stay clear of such religions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So the answer must be in a change in people's attitudes. Maybe we will face an event that will give us that mindset?

Ask them to observe moderation and not to have more drinks in place of food.

Like one planet one people. Simple ..

What do you do with other people? Religious Nazism, a serious disease which afflicts the Abrahamic religions with no known remedy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You might find new Baha'i who dont feel this way, but my anecdotal experience with the overwhelming majority of deepend Baha'i is that they do feel this way.

This would be because Baha'u'llah appears to have envisioned Baha'i law becoming the law of the land once the majority of people became Baha'i (which is what He imagined would happen).

The whole theology seems to be about the government resting on the shoulders of the prince of peace (allegedly Baha'u'llah) and the divine law being the foundation of prosperous civilisation (evidence to the contrary be dammed).

Those who say that Baha'is will not enact Baha'i laws once Baha'i reach the majority and that we should not blindly imitate Baha'u'llah are just using Baha'i marketing techniques which amount to dishonesty in my opinion.

To which I say shame on the OP.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with adopting personal honour codes whereby those who adopt the code choose personally to refrain from drinking, to go further than that and propose that such codes be adopted into the law of the land is to ignore the vast wealth of human experience produced by prior sincere attempts at abolition and the terror unleashed upon entire societies due to the war on drugs.

In my opinion.

I offer this is a misunderstanding of what Baha'u'llah has offered. The lesser peace involves the Government's of the world bringing in that peace by cooperation, it will not be the Baha'i that initiate this process and in fact will not part of it, as the Baha'i Faith is not involved in political movements.

Baha'u'llah set the law for Baha'i, so it is for them to aim for that set challenge.

There has nothing need offered in this OP about the world embracing the Laws of Baha'u'llah, it has been offered that in the future people may choose this path for themselves.

The Baha`I law is not applicable to any other person, but it does not stop a Baha'i encouraging others to think about the need for alcohol at all in their lives, to which this OP stimulates discussion on.

I see you have misunderstood the OP that my strong stance is an official Baha'i view, to which it is not, it is my strong stance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I play my guitar, post here, read, watch music videos, and become very chatty.
What is the issue with those?

Nothing wrong with that, but the OP offers you could also do that without alcohol and what would be the problem with that, other than it was not your choice to do so?

So the question could be, could you?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah! I didn't want to bring Bahai in to this, but that phrase is certainly Bahai based.
I feel quite sure that a Bahai government would ban alcohol to all.
Just another reason to stay clear of such religions.

Not at all OB, because you have to be a Baha'i to want to practice that law, it is not applicable to those that are not Baha'is. Not sure how many times I have to say that.

I do not see there will be a Baha'i Government, I keep offering that is a wrong representation of what we see is to unfold.

The lesser peace will be built by the Nations of the World and they will make the overriding laws for all Nations and Nations will set internal law in conjunction with the global standard.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ask them to observe moderation and not to have more drinks in place of food.What do you do with other people? Religious Nazism, a serious disease which afflicts the Abrahamic religions with no known remedy.

I will welcome alien as well, is that what you are asking, what other people are there here but humans?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Dreadful silly idea!
Not only should alcohol be available to adults but many drug laws and bans should be scrapped.

My father would join you in celebrating that it is a silly idea.

My Grandmother from the next world will be spurring me on to say more about it, but hey I am being moderate in my approach.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Not at all OB, because you have to be a Baha'i to want to practice that law, it is not applicable to those that are not Baha'is. Not sure how many times I have to say that.

I do not see there will be a Baha'i Government, I keep offering that is a wrong representation of what we see is to unfold.

The lesser peace will be built by the Nations of the World and they will make the overriding laws for all Nations and Nations will set internal law in conjunction with the global standard.

Regards Tony

Not sure how many times I've said this, but whenever I want to think about Bahai I think about a country with a majority of Bahai voters in it, who could vote in a Bahai government. And then all these laws could be enacted. Upon everybody.

 

[firedragon]

This to me is an important topic and will eventually be a topic discussed around the world because of the dire consequences this drug of choice inflicts upon the individual, the family, the community, the Nation and on to the entire body of humanity.

I unfortunately live in a Nation that pride themselves on getting drunk, and that mentality is expanding as the world is locked down.

I long for the day when the business of Alcohol is seen for what it has become, a killer of humanity.

So this OP shows my stance, that alcoholic beverages are not needed they are a drug of choice and all recreational drugs need to be Abolished. America tried, so what will it take?

What is your stance, what is your view?

Edit I added this so the intent of this OP is known, as my wording might not have shown that is the case.

"So this OP is all about choice and this OP is to explore why we would choose to abstain, if there was no law, or if we may again consider that a law is needed."

Regards Tony

It failed in the U.S because of two reasons mainly, but this is purely my opinion because one can only assume.

1. Because it is tyranny for a people who are not used to this kind of prohibition.
2. The U.S was built on liberalism. This is a violation of it.

I believe that any country that has the same situation, will fail in something like that. An underworld will emerge, get strong, and move into (not onto) many other illegal things as already seen.

Humans all over the world must focus on education and economics. Most things will fall into place. Even if Alcohol was available freely (not free of charge), education and economic advancement in societies will reduce abuse. This is a global phenomena.

Religious prohibition is a completely different matter. If one religion does prohibit alcohol that is a personal matter and if one chooses to abide by it, that's his wish and its all good. But statewide prohibition may have dire consequences. Because it is seen as Tyranny, citizens will get used to Tyranny and totalitarianism and in turn they will impose totalitarianism on someone else. It could be their spouses.

This is my view.

 

[oldbadger]

My father would join you in celebrating that it is a silly idea.

My Grandmother from the next world will be spurring me on to say more about it, but hey I am being moderate in my approach.

Regards Tony

Where I live our police are mostly wholly involved with drug laws. If the drug laws could be redacted then shops could sell drugs that could be taxed, police would have to do some real policing, drug gangs would have to think of something else to drive them.

We don't get booze gangs, Tony.

There would still be drink/drive laws etc, and drug/drive laws.....

 

[firedragon]

We don't get booze gangs, Tony.

Hmm. I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[DNB]

I agree there's more constructive ways. But the thing is, its already here, and its already being used as a coping mechanism/entertainment source. You could ban it, but people would find a way. It wouldn't disappear, and I fear we'd add something else for gangs(or other unsavory individual) to use to control over people.

You're right. I'm speaking more idealistically and hypothetical. I just wanted to express against those that see nothing wrong with it, even in moderation, that it has no purpose and should never have been created.
But, again, you're right, it's here to stay. So, as a concession, it would be nice to see it become harder to access, and at the same time expose it's destructiveness - logistically, I don't know effectively how, though.

 

[JustGeorge]

You're right. I'm speaking more idealistically and hypothetical. I just wanted to express, against those that see nothing wrong with it, even in moderation, that it has no purpose and should never have been created.
But, again, you're right, it's here to stay. So, as a concession, it would be nice to see it become harder to access, and at the same time, expose it's destructiveness - logistically, I don't know effectively how, though.

I think taking some of the glory out of it would help. Not shaming, not brushing it under the rug, but being open about the benefits of being without it and highlighting more suitable alternative activities. Businesses could help by offering new venues for entertainment and nightlife that didn't revolve around being drunk. I think its especially bad for rural or lower populated areas, where there is almost nothing else to do in the evening other than gather at the bar with friends.

 

[danieldemol]

I offer this is a misunderstanding of what Baha'u'llah has offered. The lesser peace involves the Government's of the world bringing in that peace by cooperation, it will not be the Baha'i that initiate this process and in fact will not part of it, as the Baha'i Faith is not involved in political movements.

Tony, sadly it appears you are still speaking marketing speak and half truths.

Baha'u'llah did not only insist on the lesser peace, which is merely a sort of political unification, as such to even refer to it strikes me as a red herring.

Baha'u'llah also insisted that what He called the "most great peace" would come. This is from Baha'i teachings.org;

"Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.'

Source: The Lesser Peace and the Most Great Peace

In case you need it any clearer than that, 'Shoghi Effendi also stated that certain other laws, such as criminal laws, that are dependent upon the existence of a predominantly Baháʼí society would only be applicable in a possible future Baháʼí society.[3][4]'

Source: Baháʼí laws - Wikipedia

So lets define predominantly from Oxford Languages:
predominantly
/prɪˈdɒmɪnəntli/
Learn to pronounce

adverb

1. mainly; for the most part.
   "it is predominantly a coastal bird".

Then think what of the criminal laws Baha'u'llah is alleged to have "revealed"? In a society that is "mainly or for the most part" Baha'i (ie not entirely Baha'i) these criminal laws would apply.
I think it should be obvious to you from the fact that these criminal laws were given by Baha'u'llah that He intended them for non-Baha'i members of society, otherwise criminals would practically never undergo punishment as they could apostatize to escape the weight of criminal law. Can you see how that would not make sense - to reveal a criminal law to effect Baha'is only?

To say Baha'i don't engage in politics at the present is again a red herring. We are discussing a potential future in which Baha'i are the majority. You might find this link (again from Bahaiteachings.org) interesting where it says that only a majority of Baha'is would be necessary for adoption of the Baha'i administrative order Could the Baha’i Administration Ever Become a World Government?

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

You're right. I'm speaking more idealistically and hypothetical. I just wanted to express, against those that see nothing wrong with it, even in moderation, that it has no purpose and should never have been created.
But, again, you're right, it's here to stay. So, as a concession, it would be nice to see it become harder to access, and at the same time, expose it's destructiveness - logistically, I don't know effectively how, though.

This tactic has been proven disastrous. Unless the alcohol prohibition has been there for centuries and its natural for people to find it difficult to access it. If you impose it upon a society that is not used to it, it will prove to be a disaster. Like it did in the prohibition era in the U.S.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, sadly it appears you are still speaking marketing speak and half truths.

Baha'u'llah did not only insist on the lesser peace, which is merely a sort of political unification, as such to even refer to it strikes me as a red herring.

Baha'u'llah also insisted that what He called the "most great peace" would come. This is from Baha'i teachings.org;

"Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.'

Source: The Lesser Peace and the Most Great Peace

In case you need it any clearer than that, 'Shoghi Effendi also stated that certain other laws, such as criminal laws, that are dependent upon the existence of a predominantly Baháʼí society would only be applicable in a possible future Baháʼí society.[3][4]'

Source: Baháʼí laws - Wikipedia

So lets define predominantly from Oxford Languages:
predominantly
/prɪˈdɒmɪnəntli/
Learn to pronounce

adverb

1. mainly; for the most part.
   "it is predominantly a coastal bird".

Then think what of the criminal laws Baha'u'llah is alleged to have "revealed"? In a society that is "mainly or for the most part" Baha'i (ie not entirely Baha'i) these criminal laws would apply.
I think it should be obvious to you from the fact that these criminal laws were given by Baha'u'llah that He intended them for non-Baha'i members of society, otherwise criminals would practically never undergo punishment as they could apostatize to escape the weight of criminal law. Can you see how that would not make sense - to reveal a criminal law to effect Baha'is only?

To say Baha'i don't engage in politics at the present is again a red herring. We are discussing a potential future in which Baha'i are the majority. You might find this link (again from Bahaiteachings.org) interesting where it says that only a majority of Baha'is would be necessary for adoption of the Baha'i administrative order Could the Baha’i Administration Ever Become a World Government?

In my opinion.

You may be Daniel and OB may be and that is the red herring as I am not discussing an unknown distant future, to which the Most Great Peace can not be envisaged.

I am thinking about what will be needed for the Lesser Peace, which again has not got any set Clarity as to how it will unfold from the turmoil we face in the is age.

I am discussing the here and now and the change the world needs for the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Religious Nazism, a serious disease which afflicts the Abrahamic religions with no known remedy.

Hello again....
Yep, that's the problem, groups who insist that they know what is best for me and so wish to take my reins, steer me straight, blah blah.
.......Not!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We don't get booze gangs, Tony.

Yes it is still a legal drug of choice, that hides behind a chimera of respectability.



I expect a lot of flack from that, please do not dissapoint.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I am discussing the here and now and the change the world needs for the Lesser Peace.
Regards Tony

Which leads me to warn any about Bahai policies for any Bahai stage of any kind of control, Tony.

 

[danieldemol]

It failed in the U.S because of two reasons mainly, but this is purely my opinion because one can only assume.

1. Because it is tyranny for a people who are not used to this kind of prohibition.
2. The U.S was built on liberalism. This is a violation of it.

Hah, I used to live with a Muslim from Lebanon who was a heavy drinker, he told me they used to just pretend to be Christian for long enough to purchase their alcohol from the shop then went around in public as Muslims but privately they drank.

There is a black market for alcohol in Saudi Arabia too;
Source: Saudi Arabia drinking: The risks expats take for a tipple

Apparently in 2018 6.83 percent of respondents to a survey in Saudi Arabia said they have 1 to 3 alcoholic drinks per week, with only 77.65% claiming they do not drink alcohol.

Source: Saudi Arabia - average alcohol consumption in 7 days 2017-2018 | Statista

In my opinion.