Abolition of Alcohol

[TransmutingSoul]

This OP was not to win the popular vote.

My wife is away for a week, so I must have been bored to start such a thread, mostly I keep quite on this, but when I do not, I know what's coming.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which leads me to warn any about Bahai policies for any Bahai stage of any kind of control, Tony.

Our words will be long gone before that day OB.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

You may be Daniel and OB may be and that is the red herring as I am not discussing an unknown distant future, to which the Most Great Peace can not be envisaged.

I am thinking about what will be needed for the Lesser Peace, which again has not got any set Clarity as to how it will unfold from the turmoil we face in the is age.

I am discussing the here and now and the change the world needs for the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony

It doesn't say anywhere in the Baha'i writings that I'm aware of that abolition is necessary for the lesser peace, it only speaks of political unification and says it would occur in the 20th century.

None of which requires the abolition of alcohol.

In my opinion.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes it is still a legal drug of choice, that hides behind a chimera of respectability.



I expect a lot of flack from that, please do not dissapoint.

Regards Tony

Personally I don't drink much booze.

But this last 18 months I have purchased and used MASSES of 80-100% alcohol, using it several times a day.... for hand cleansing. I have kept a bottle of isopropyl alcohol in both vehicles and at home, a seriously important product for use against Covid. And you would ban its use. My wife uses it all day long at work.

Crazy. Daft. Taking people's medical safety away from them.

 

[danieldemol]

Our words will be long gone before that day OB.

Regards Tony

Hopefully humanity is vigilant enough that the dystopia of Baha'u'llah's "most great peace" never comes to pass.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Personally I don't drink much booze.

But this last 18 months I have purchased and used MASSES of 80-100% alcohol, using it several times a day.... for hand cleansing. I have kept a bottle of isopropyl alcohol in both vehicles and at home, a seriously important product for use against Covid. And you would ban its use. My wife uses it all day long at work.

Crazy. Daft. Taking people's medical safety away from them.

You have not read the OP correctly OB.

Medicinal uses are supported in the OP, but that's OK, it was a very mild comeback.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hopefully humanity is vigilant enough that the dystopia of Baha'u'llah's "most great peace" never comes to pass.

In my opinion.

It may be that it what is needed. So I will agree to disagree and hope the best for all peoples.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

So this OP shows my stance, that alcoholic beverages are not needed they are a drug of choice and all recreational drugs need to be Abolished. America tried, so what will it take?

It did work somewhat, in that there was a modest drop in alcohol consumption I have heard in a documentary in my country, but unfortunately abolishing it helped the rise of crime. The most famous was Al Capone. He built a bootlegging empire. The police looked the other way because after all they probably wanted to take a drink, too! They were bribed besides. Chicago was corrupt.

I personally don't think practically abolishing alcohol works.

You and I have a religious obligation to not drink alcohol, but that in the end is between us and God, no one is to spy on us in our communities. Only us can enforce our own lack of consumption of alcohol. I was lucky, I never started, so in my case it is easy!

I believe this should be the same for all, they should either realize the deleterious possible effects if we start drinking, because nobody knows what their susceptibility to getting their drinking out of control will be. This can be part of the education of children early in life, so that this takes root.

An alternative is to be part of a religion that prohibits alcohol. Eventually, you and I believe, everyone will have a religious obligation to not drink alcohol, and that is the long range solution.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nothing wrong with that, but the OP offers you could also do that without alcohol and what would be the problem with that, other than it was not your choice to do so?

So the question could be, could you?

Regards Tony

I do them sober as well, except the become more chatty than normal part. Sometimes I do them under the influence.

 

[Truthseeker]

I have no problem with alcohol in moderation.

But how many will stop there? I am not advocating legal abolition, but education for all that it is unwise to start, even in moderation.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I wonder how many alcoholics got sober in the US, as a result of prohibition 100 years ago? I’m going to take a guess, and say none; not one.

 

[Truthseeker]

There are millions of people who are quite capable of indulging in alcohol or other drugs in a responsible manner with absolutely no negative consequences.

How do they know beforehand before they start they can do this?

 

[Truthseeker]

The world would be a better place without the irresponsible use of alcohol and the world would be a worse place without the responsible use of alcohol. I see a good argument for both sides.

Is there a responsible use of alcohol, when it might spiral out of control, depending on who you are, and in my opinion you won't know beforehand. You personally might know, but what about those who have not started to drink or have drugs yet?

 

[oldbadger]

You have not read the OP correctly OB.

Medicinal uses are supported in the OP, but that's OK, it was a very mild comeback.

Regards Tony

Ha ha! Gotcha!
I use gin for scratches, mouth wash etc.
So I would need a 'stificate for gin as well.

 

[Ponder This]

This to me is an important topic and will eventually be a topic discussed around the world because of the dire consequences this drug of choice inflicts upon the individual, the family, the community, the Nation and on to the entire body of humanity.

I unfortunately live in a Nation that pride themselves on getting drunk, and that mentality is expanding as the world is locked down.

I long for the day when the business of Alcohol is seen for what it has become, a killer of humanity.

So this OP shows my stance, that alcoholic beverages are not needed they are a drug of choice and all recreational drugs need to be Abolished. America tried, so what will it take?

What is your stance, what is your view?

Edit I added this so the intent of this OP is known, as my wording might not have shown that is the case.

"So this OP is all about choice and this OP is to explore why we would choose to abstain, if there was no law, or if we may again consider that a law is needed."

Regards Tony

In the Ideal World, there are no laws against consumption of alcohol. People simply choose not to.

One obvious reason to abstain from the consumption of alcohol is that alcohol is harmful to the body. It is a good choice to refrain even if there is no law against it.

A law against can be considered in those cases where people bring about harm to others through their actions. But there are two laws: the law of man and the Law of God. The Law of God is for those who believe in God and the law of man is so that people may coexist. It is not for man to create the Law of God; it is for man to observe the Law of God and to strive to live by it. But the law of man must govern both the believer and the unbeliever. Therefore, the consumption of alcohol, if forbidden by man, causes strife between the believer and the unbeliever.

It is better to discourage others from consuming alcohol than it is to compel others to live according to what you choose for them (as by so doing you seek to usurp the power of God for yourself). But, if they do wrong to you or to others, then it is within your rights to seek proper justice. God is aware, not simply of what you do, but of why you do it. This is why it is said: God is most aware, knowing.

 

[John53]

Is there a responsible use of alcohol, when it might spiral out of control, depending on who you are, and in my opinion you won't know beforehand. You personally might know, but what about those who have not started to drink or have drugs yet?

I guess you can't know for certain until it's over.

 

[Truthseeker]

Often times most people are ok with alcohol. Numerous studies have shown benefits of moderate alcohol consumption. Often times it's even used as a cooking ingredient.
But alcohol prohibition we know already fails and makes dangerous amd violent criminals powerful and wealthy.
Better to emphasize responsible use (as with all drugs) rather than take a repeatedly failed course.

We need to regulate ourselves and not drink alcohol, though not prohibit. It needs to be taught in schools before they are of the age to drink. There is no responsible drinking of alcohol for many, it destroys many lives. And they don't know beforehand if it will destroy their life or not.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I will welcome alien as well, is that what you are asking, what other people are there here but humans?

Forget about aliens, who will never come (too far away, if there are any intelligent ones). We are quarantined by distances. Humans have different cultures, different traditions, different beliefs. Your one world, one people does not accommodate this.

The lesser peace will be built by the Nations of the World and they will make the overriding laws for all Nations and Nations will set internal law in conjunction with the global standard.

Overriding laws of nations other than who accept the so-called international law is bullying. India has not signed many UN recommendations. We are a soveign nation and have the right to do so. We have our own standards.

It doesn't say anywhere in the Baha'i writings that I'm aware of that abolition is necessary for the lesser peace, it only speaks of political unification and says it would occur in the 20th century.

Does it say so, much like Jesus who said that the Kingdom of God will come in the life-time of disciples? Well, 20th Century is already over. Prophecies that failed.

 

[Truthseeker]

I would like to see ads that show the negative side. For every beer commercial showing people having fun, maybe the companies could pay for an ad showing someone puking their guts out, or going through the DTs from withdrawal. Admittedly, we have come a long way in the last 50 years, as there is some warning, like the MADD ads, and the 'drink responsibly' stuff. I think it could go further, just as education. Too much glory, not enough gory.

Prohibition simply doesn't work.

You're on the right track, in my opinion.

 

[John53]

We need to regulate ourselves and not drink alcohol, though not prohibit. It needs to be taught in schools before they are of the age to drink. There is no responsible drinking of alcohol for many, it destroys many lives. And they don't know beforehand if it will destroy their life or not.

As can many things, food, cars, skateboards and a million other things. Do we stay at home and do nothing? I'm over weight, let's ban food.