Abomination of Desolation

[BilliardsBall]

I have; I was a Christian for 3 decades and studied biblical Greek, including being a teacher for both adults and children.

I understand different Christians interpret this quotation as referent to Herod's Temple, the next Temple, the Roman Catholic Church, other churches, the Jews, the body, the spirit, the soul, etc ... and so, my comment.

Antiochus Epiphanes IV put a pig on the altar in Jerusalem. He ordered abandonment of the Temple practices. I'm not interested in finding minority or even majority opinions, I want to know what the Bible says where it is being obvious and direct.

You made a sweeping statement "whatever you want it to be" rather than telling the truth - the King of Syria abominated the Temple so some see the RCC or the Jewish people or the Third Temple being prophesied. I just don't sit well with "the Bible is what you want it to be" and I believe your life choices have to do with what you know the Bible says and what you wish it said, not what it says! Respectfully, that's how I feel about our interaction.

 

[oldbadger]

In Jesus' final sermon on the Mount of Olives He refers to the "abomination of desolation"

Mathew 24:15-16
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

What does this mean?

Hi......
I am not sure of the date when Matthew was written, but this seems to be a reference to events which had already happened.
Do we know when Matthew was written? When weas the Temple destroyed, and Judea overrun?

 

[Dawnofhope]

In Jesus' final sermon on the Mount of Olives He refers to the "abomination of desolation"

Mathew 24:15-16
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

What does this mean?

Let us try to better focus on the topic of the thread.

I accept the authority and authenticity of scripture. Not everyone here does and that fine providing we don't get distracted. Topics such as the authority and authenticity of scripture/God/Jesus are best discussed elsewhere IMHO. Similarly if someone wants to believe some of the NT books are not inspired by God then that is another topic too.

We are considering the phrase Abomination of Desolation that Jesus mentions in Mathew 24. It relates to Daniel 9. The phrase is also mentioned in Daniel 11:31 and most likely refers to the altar to the pagan god Zeus set up in the temple 168 BC. Much of the preceding text in Daniel 11 refers to the time when the Persians and Greeks rule over the Jews. Daniel 9:24-27 is highly significant because it fulfils a specific prophecy in regards to Jesus, and in Mathew 24 Jesus is most likely indicating that this prophecy is about to be fulfilled.

Mathew 24 and much of Daniel uses a style of language that is apocalyptic. It can be very difficult to understand. However if we take the time to reflect on how Jesus fulfils Daniel 9:24 then we have made progress.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

What is meant by seventy weeks?

Which is this command to build Jerusalem?

Who is the Messiah who will be cut off?

What is the covenant?

 

[savagewind]

I think the evil in the Bible means to be wrong. Most people are OK with being wrong because they do not presume to be righteous. That which Jesus spoke of might mean something that is very wrong but pictures itself righteous.

I think that to flee to the mountains means to part ways with the wrong one who views himself righteous.
The mountain pictures the place where God is.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi......
I am not sure of the date when Matthew was written, but this seems to be a reference to events which had already happened.
Do we know when Matthew was written? When weas the Temple destroyed, and Judea overrun?

Great questions

The temple was destroyed 70 AD. It was a downhill slide for the Jews in Judea thereafter and some historians may want to fill in the details.

A key person was Bar Kohkba who many Jews believed to literally fulfil prophecy of a warrior like Messiah along the lines of King David. He led the Jewish people against the Romans in the second century and it was a disaster for the Jews.

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia

There is obviously controversy about when Mathew was written. Some Christian scholars will date the book as early as 50 AD though others between 65-70 AD or even later. Of course secular scholars will argue that the book must have been written after 70 AD as such prophecy is impossible.

 

[oldbadger]

Great questions

The temple was destroyed 70 AD. It was a downhill slide for the Jews in Judea thereafter and some historians may want to fill in the details.

A key person was Bar Kohkba who many Jews believed to literally fulfil prophecy of a warrior like Messiah along the lines of King David. He led the Jewish people against the Romans in the second century and it was a disaster for the Jews.

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia

There is obviously controversy about when Mathew was written. Some Christian scholars will date the book as early as 50 AD though others between 65-70 AD or even later. Of course secular scholars will argue that the book must have been written after 70 AD as such prophecy is impossible.

I reckon the G-Mark was the first, and written circa 55-65AD. Matthew certainly followed Mark because it copied vast tracts of Mark, as did Luke (even later).

The big problem for historians is that Christians tinkered with the writings later on, just they certainly did with Josephus's asccount.

I do trawl Matthew, Luke and John for very valuable snippets, but once G-Mark is put through the truth seive that is the book which holds the true reports..... IMO!

 

[buddhist]

Antiochus Epiphanes IV put a pig on the altar in Jerusalem. He ordered abandonment of the Temple practices. I'm not interested in finding minority or even majority opinions, I want to know what the Bible says where it is being obvious and direct.

You made a sweeping statement "whatever you want it to be" rather than telling the truth - the King of Syria abominated the Temple so some see the RCC or the Jewish people or the Third Temple being prophesied. I just don't sit well with "the Bible is what you want it to be" and I believe your life choices have to do with what you know the Bible says and what you wish it said, not what it says! Respectfully, that's how I feel about our interaction.

With all due respect, are you speaking as a divinely appointed prophet who knows exactly, with 100% confidence, as to what the text means?

P.S. I will withdraw from this thread based on the OP's request Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I reckon the G-Mark was the first, and written circa 55-65AD. Matthew certainly followed Mark because it copied vast tracts of Mark, as did Luke (even later).

The big problem for historians is that Christians tinkered with the writings later on, just they certainly did with Josephus's asccount.

I do trawl Matthew, Luke and John for very valuable snippets, but once G-Mark is put through the truth seive that is the book which holds the true reports..... IMO!

There has obviously been a great deal of scholarship that is investigated these questions.

Without Josephus we probably don't have much to go on for that time period so close to the life and ministry of Jesus. Interesting that there is no mention of a physical resurrection witnessed by 500 or other miraculous events!

The synoptic Gospels being based on Mark seems to be the most accepted theory. And as you mention there is the problem of the last past concerning the resurrection that probably isn't written by Mark.

That being said there are profound and life changing spiritual truths within this book and I prefer to focus on the luminous teachings rather than be too put off by all these issues.

The Baha'i Faith of course does not have these problems.

 

[Dawnofhope]

P.S. I will withdraw from this thread based on the OP's request Thanks for the conversation.

I'm really happy to have you here and am enjoying the conversation with you. I'm just encouraging us all to focus on the topic

 

[Thief]

Who knows? The Temple could be the ancient Temple of Jesus' time. Or, a new Temple. Or the body. Or the soul. Or symbolic of a church, synagogue, church body, denomination, faction, or something else.

how about ....?....that item you have say over
that item held by you

your soul

 

[Thief]

Proverbs 18:17 He who pleads his cause first seems right; until another comes and questions him.

never would have guessed.....(note my signature)

 

[whirlingmerc]

Spoiler alert: a bit of a complex answer coming.

Bottom line: I think lots is going on and the abomination that causes desolation is mainly false worship replacing true and is represented by past Maccabean events, soon coming events which related to Jerusalem's fall in 70 ad, the normal course of the world with wars and rumors of wars, increasing problems like birth pangs and the birth the ultimate future events related to Jesus return happening after the gospel is preached to all nations.

At least thats generally how I see it where the abomination that causes desolation is related to the first part: mainly false worship replacing true. Just as there being people acting in the spirit of the anitchrist all through history there would be an ultimate antichrist and Daniel 9:27 would apply to both Maccabees and the ultimate (both future to Daniel)

_______________________________________

And is a little more detail if desired ... ok .. read on....
I think sometimes in prophesy there are nearer term fulfillments and later fulfillments. In those temple sermons I think several things are going on.

Jesus disciples look at the big stones in the temple and marvel and tell Jesus how awesome they are and Jesus makes a stunning claim.... 'some day not one stone will be even laying on one another' They understandably ask when and Jesus uses that to talk about not getting distracted when the normal state of affairs of wars and rumors of wars happen but to preach the gospel to all nations and then the end shall come.

Some issues along the way are what you bring up. A past case where in the times of the Maccabees an unkosher pig was offered on an altar of the temple as insult us a type if some ultimate anti christ who will be that on steroids. So the abomination that causes desolation is past, near future and far future.

Stones will fall, jerusalem will fall, stars will fall ... then the end (yes hyperbole is allowed)
Don't get distracted and preach the gospel.

The stones falling imply Jerusalem will also be occupied and destroyed but that is not 'the end' Christians should preach the gospel to all nations and then the end shall come. The stones will fall then at Jerusalem's fall in 70 ad but ultimately at 'the end' it will be like the stars falling, the sun and moon might lose its light and in the darkest time the son of man will shine with his return.

and there's more going on..... 'the generation living will see the kingdom of God ... various people see it as those seeing the resurrection, the coming of the spirit, the miracles that accompanied the preaching of the gospels in the near term and the return in the long term or some combination

 

[Dawnofhope]

increasing problems like birth pangs and the birth the ultimate future events related to Jesus return happening after the gospel is preached to all nations.

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this thread. Which nations are yet to have the Gospels preached or has this prophecy already been fulfilled?

an ultimate antichrist and Daniel 9:27 would apply to both Maccabees and the ultimate (both future to Daniel)

I'm often intrigued by what some Christians talk about when they refer to as the ultimate antichrist.

Arguably the two most important events in these prophetic verses are the establishment of a New Covenant between God and His people through Jesus The Christ, and the Crucifixion of Christ by His own people.

With the change from the Old Testament to the New Testament our understanding of what the Abomination of Desolation means changes. In Daniel 11:31 it has a much more specific meaning in regards to idol worship but Jesus hints at a change of the language in referring to Daniel 9:24-27 and Himself and so rather than idol worship the great abomination of the Old Testament the language is centred around being anti-Christ. Of course the crucifixion symbolises this perfectly.

Instead of the temple being the focal point of worship, The Personage of Jesus becomes central.

John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

However an even greater abomination in the future is suggested in them words of Christ:

Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

The purpose of this thread and to enable us all to sharpen the sword of "The Word of God" for the spiritual battles that lie ahead.

Jesus reminds us to be anxiously concerned with the times we live in now, and to discern the signs so our energies are rightfully directed:

Matthew 16:3 "And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"

 

[oldbadger]

There has obviously been a great deal of scholarship that is investigated these questions.

Without Josephus we probably don't have much to go on for that time period so close to the life and ministry of Jesus. Interesting that there is no mention of a physical resurrection witnessed by 500 or other miraculous events!

Yes, to all......
I am most interested in 'anti-Christian' writers as well, because their accounts tend to throw additional light onto Jesus and disciples.

The synoptic Gospels being based on Mark seems to be the most accepted theory. And as you mention there is the problem of the last past concerning the resurrection that probably isn't written by Mark.

There are 'tinkerings' through most of Mark, imo, but they cannot hide the real story, methinks.

That being said there are profound and life changing spiritual truths within this book and I prefer to focus on the luminous teachings rather than be too put off by all these issues.

I do the opposite...
I focus upon the whole lot, critically, solely to study the person, life and mission of the handworker Yeshua BarYosef

The Baha'i Faith of course does not have these problems.

When I met my bahai wife, half a century ago, Bahais were pleased to tell stories of the Bab's and Bahauallah's miracles. I still remember some of them. Folks most likely don't hear those accounts now. And over the years other accounts have tended to fade away......... give it 2000 years and people like me (with nothing better to do ) will be trawling for truth.

 

[wizanda]

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am (Ego I-mee) the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Luke 21:8 He said, "Watch out that you don't get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, 'I am (Ego I-mee),' and, 'The time is at hand.' Therefore don't follow them.

Yeshua doesn't speak that way, a clear proof John is made up.

The phrase is also mentioned in Daniel 11:31 and most likely refers to the altar to the pagan god Zeus set up in the temple 168 BC.

Daniel is quoting from Jeremiah about the abomination of desolation; when we look up the words 'abomination' of 'desolation' in Jeremiah and not a presupposition supplanted by the Rabbis, we see the actual context of it is the diaspora, the desecration of Israel, it being turned into a desolation, due to the abomination.

They murdered Yeshua on the 'valley of Yehoshaphat' (The Lord has Judged) or the 'valley of slaughter' in Jeremiah; why people can't see that as the abomination to begin, just for murdering their messiah, yet to then make him into an idol for the Gentiles is beyond disgusting....John is purposely made up, as is Paul.

Which is this command to build Jerusalem?

The rebuilding is after Babylonian exile, before Yeshua.

Who is the Messiah who will be cut off?

Yeshua by specification; numerous things had to happen, which implies only he fulfilled them in their historical timeline.

What is the covenant?

The covenant is the last supper, it is an 'abomination' as explained in Ezekiel 4/5, they've defiled the table of the Lord by turning an animal sacrifice into a man.

Now you could think that was Yeshua's doing, yet he didn't sacrifice himself, the Pharisee had chosen to as stated in the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, thus ending their covenant with God, and they were given a new one of abomination...

This is why it states they shall take their defiled bread, and broken covenant throughout the nations where they've been expelled to...

Yet with Paul's and John's influence, they've made most of it not make sense, as people still think the Jews are chosen people, when according to the prophets they're a curse until after the Tribulation.

 

[Reggie Miller]

Luke 21:8 He said, "Watch out that you don't get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, 'I am (Ego I-mee),' and, 'The time is at hand.' Therefore don't follow them.

Yeshua doesn't speak that way, a clear proof John is made up.

Daniel is quoting from Jeremiah about the abomination of desolation; when we look up the words 'abomination' of 'desolation' in Jeremiah and not a presupposition supplanted by the Rabbis, we see the actual context of it is the diaspora, the desecration of Israel, it being turned into a desolation, due to the abomination.

They murdered Yeshua on the 'valley of Yehoshaphat' (The Lord has Judged) or the 'valley of slaughter' in Jeremiah; why people can't see that as the abomination to begin, just for murdering their messiah, yet to then make him into an idol for the Gentiles is beyond disgusting....John is purposely made up, as is Paul.

The rebuilding is after Babylonian exile, before Yeshua.

Yeshua by specification; numerous things had to happen, which implies only he fulfilled them in their historical timeline.

The covenant is the last supper, it is an 'abomination' as explained in Ezekiel 4/5, they've defiled the table of the Lord by turning an animal sacrifice into a man.

Now you could think that was Yeshua's doing, yet he didn't sacrifice himself, the Pharisee had chosen to as stated in the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, thus ending their covenant with God, and they were given a new one of abomination...

This is why it states they shall take their defiled bread, and broken covenant throughout the nations where they've been expelled to...

Yet with Paul's and John's influence, they've made most of it not make sense, as people still think the Jews are chosen people, when according to the prophets they're a curse until after the Tribulation.

There is no proof John is made up, just your opinion that it is. Most all Christian churches accept John as genuine and I prefer their opinions over yours.

 

[wizanda]

There is no proof John is made up, just your opinion that it is.

There are lots of proofs within the text, anyone who is interested in Yeshua's character should recognize it isn't the same person within the Synoptic Gospels, when compared to the Gospel of John....

Here and Here are numerous points showing how John conflicts with the Synoptic Gospels, and there are loads more points that can be listed.

The other point to take into account is that the Gospel of John is most likely written by someone who was a member of the Sanhedrin who hated Yeshua, which is why there are so many slanderous statements within it.

Most all Christian churches accept John as genuine

As for Christian churches accepting it, the Mother of all Harlots is the Roman Catholic Church, with her children being all of Christianity fed on her 66 books.

 

[Reggie Miller]

There are lots of proofs within the text, anyone who is interested in Yeshua's character should recognize it isn't the same person within the Synoptic Gospels, when compared to the Gospel of John....

Here and Here are numerous points showing how John conflicts with the Synoptic Gospels, and there are loads more points that can be listed.

The other point to take into account is that the Gospel of John is most likely written by someone who was a member of the Sanhedrin who hated Yeshua, which is why there are so many slanderous statements within it.

As for Christian churches accepting it, the Mother of all Harlots is the Roman Catholic Church, with her children being all of Christianity fed on her 66 books.

And... you just made my ignore list. May God bless you and reveal His truth to you.

 

[wizanda]

And... you just made my ignore list.

So much for trying to help people see this before the Tribulation....

 

[BilliardsBall]

With all due respect, are you speaking as a divinely appointed prophet who knows exactly, with 100% confidence, as to what the text means?

P.S. I will withdraw from this thread based on the OP's request Thanks for the conversation.

I know with a lot more confidence than most based on conversations with the author and based on living, not just studying, the author's text.

Buddhist, I was responding to your "the Bible means anything and everything" which is 100% not true in the case under discussion.

Thank you.