Abortion and the death penalty

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer. Dictionary/bible is a huge turn off. I mentioned I looked up defense and commented on it without needing to separate the word to make any huge point. Unless you're skimming my posts, please just talk in your own words.

I did. I said that neither the death sentence or life in prison is revenge unless someone is seeking revenge. But judges and juries do not seek revenge, they seek to carry out justice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Once you take a person's life because of her actions, that act-whether it's done as a crime or as justice-is devaluing a person by saying she is no longer worth it (like trash)-and assuming the "authorities" have the moral right to dictate the existence of a person. The end doesn't validate the means.

Devaluing a person....This is just your emotional reaction to justice.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there were a universal criteria for justice (what constitutes as a crime, for example), the argument may be a bit stronger but since there isn't, I'm just not getting taking a life is a good thing regardless the justification.

That is just your personal opinion to which you are welcome.
My opinion is that some criminals do not deserve to take one more breath.

 

[Trailblazer]

But your comment didn't address the question. Of course it depends on the nature of the crime, but is the stigma warranted if the nature of the crime met the criteria of the death penalty?

It would hardly matter after they are dead.

One thing I recall reading in the Baha'i Writings is that when they die evil souls go somewhere far away from good souls where they can no longer hurt good souls, but even those evil souls can be helped by the mercy of God, if they want help. Such is the mercy of God. But the flip side of that is that God's justice is no picnic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is just your personal opinion to which you are welcome.
My opinion is that some criminals do not deserve to take one more breath.

That doesn't solve that I don't get how taking a life is right or wrong depending on who does the killing and the nature of the crime. Unless a person only values life in certain circumstances, it really makes me think how mean people are in the world.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Devaluing a person....This is just your emotional reaction to justice.

If you're killing another human being, most people would have emotional reactions. Though, I'm not sure why they would not based on the nature of the crime and whose doing the killing. Their emotional reaction (well, at least on RF) would be "hang up at stake!"

No one is excluded from emotional reactions (well, not emotional as in crying, anger, or yelling at my computer screen) or concerns over the taking of another life. I just don't understand how there is justification to take someone out of the only life they have left-whether they messed it up or not, that's their fault-but we don't have to confirm the mistake by setting up a double standard.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It would hardly matter after they are dead.

One thing I recall reading in the Baha'i Writings is that when they die evil souls go somewhere far away from good souls where they can no longer hurt good souls, but even those evil souls can be helped by the mercy of God, if they want help. Such is the mercy of God. But the flip side of that is that God's justice is no picnic.

The stigma I'm referring to is ex-criminals and how they are perceived when they are no longer in prison. Is the stigma warranted based on the nature of their ex-crimes.

Could the evil souls ask for help or would they meet god's mercy and justice first?
(Thanks for putting this in your own words)

The definition of justice on earth varies by person, people, culture, law, and crime but god's justice? If I had some belief there was a creator, it wouldn't be a god that has rewards/justice. I find that too political if a creator were what many say it is when talking about its good characteristics.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My opinion is that some criminals do not deserve to take one more breath.

What is the criteria for a crime that warrants death and one that doesn't?

Is it determined by the level of pain of the victim (whether perceived or the victim actually experienced), the nature of the crime (child abuse vs murder), or?

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't solve that I don't get how taking a life is right or wrong depending on who does the killing and the nature of the crime. Unless a person only values life in certain circumstances, it really makes me think how mean people are in the world.

I think we have gone around enough circles and we are never going to agree, so we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you're killing another human being, most people would have emotional reactions.

That's true, and that is why I have an emotional reaction when I see the commission of a heinous murder.

 

[Trailblazer]

Could the evil souls ask for help or would they meet god's mercy and justice first?

They can ask regardless of meeting any criteria, but it will be up to God as to whether they get help or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the criteria for a crime that warrants death and one that doesn't?

That is up to the courts to decide. From what I have seen on TV it would only be for murder if it was premeditated and heinous and the evidence was incontrovertible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If a life sentence in prison is not necessarily revenge please explain why, logically speaking, the death penalty is revenge.

Because life in prison is an alternative without killing someone. The motive of the death penalty is far too often revenge. It does not make society safer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which makes me wonder why it does not bug you when a murderer takes a life, after torturing the victim.

Do you seriously think that she feels that way?

 

[Trailblazer]

Because life in prison is an alternative without killing someone. The motive of the death penalty is far too often revenge. It does not make society safer.

The family of the victim might want revenge, but I do not believe that revenge enters in when a judge and jury deliberate on the sentence. This is not about making society safer, it is about justice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you seriously think that she feels that way?

Yes I do. I think she feels that there is no difference between a murder and the death sentence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The family of the victim might want revenge, but I do not believe that revenge enters in when a judge and jury deliberate on the sentence. This is not about making society safer, it is about justice.

Yes, the family might want revenge. I really do not care. Justice is not based upon what the victim wants. And the problem with the death penalty is that the odds of a monstrous injustice being done are simply too great.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the family might want revenge. I really do not care. Justice is not based upon what the victim wants. And the problem with the death penalty is that the odds of a monstrous injustice being done are simply too great.

I fully agree. Justice should never be based upon what the victim wants.
Why do you think that there are any odds of a monstrous injustice being done if the evidence of guilt is incontrovertible?

What makes me sick to death is the lies that murderers tell, the denial over and over. They will lie until the bitter end, when they can lie no more. Then they finally confess so they won't get the death sentence. How is that justice?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's true, and that is why I have an emotional reaction when I see the commission of a heinous murder.

In the states, family's victims can watch the guilty be executed. It ideally provides some closure, says the government. In one sense, I agree it does. On the other, I feel there are more healthier means to bring closer without revenge or needing one's pain be put on another because of their hurt.

It also reminds me back in the times where criminals were literally sent to the lions and people all around cheered. Other times people gathered to watch criminals heads be chopped off and smile in laughs as if they are absolve from such acts.

That's the emotionalism I get in my head when I think of revenge. I don't remember even taken revenge my whole life. Even if I thought about it, say something stupid like talking about someone behind their back because of X, I stop myself and just think that's not who I am. I just leave it alone. I can't imagine why people would smile and support such a thing. I really don't.

Just my last thoughts... it really makes me said. Its a double standard more than anything else and I don't see crimes justified on either side whether its called justice or murder.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Mostly?

Well, I guess I am 100% against it. I mean, I AM 100% against it.