Abortion and the death penalty

[Trailblazer]

Though, in my opinion, you (challenging opinion not you as a person) still be considered a fanatic even if you believe 1% people should die and the rest should live. Being a fanatic would be agreeing to death penalty in itself.

Calling someone a fanatic just because you disagree with them does not comport with logic.
No, being a fanatic would be seeing no reason for the death penalty under any circumstances.

Whether or not there are exemptions, you still agree that punishment of death should be in the hands of people.

What other hands can it be in? It is in the hands of the people who are involved in the criminal justice system.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am not saying you did.
I am saying that I can see why others might think that based upon what you posted.

They might think that if they jumped to conclusions without asking be what I believe.
But I made it clear that I believe that the death penalty should only be used in certain circumstances and that life in prison is an alternative.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It certainly settles the revenge aspect, even if the hole left by their losing loved ones is never filled.

Best not to use the rhetoric of the popular press if one doesn't want to be mistaken for such.

It's rather a fact of life that rich nations tend to draw in those attracted to any better way of life (as they perceive such, and especially from poorer countries) such that there will probably be many more hopeful immigrants than any nation particularly wants and/or can handle. It mostly has been that way for some time. Many nations do have rather strict controls over such, and hence the illegal option becomes more of an issue for some of them. But I'd rather not get into arguments about any individual's exact reasons for wanting to immigrate into another nation - not without asking them first that is.

And it's a bit ripe for many to complain when our actions as rich nations often brings about the conditions for so many wanting to leave their own countries - even if such is unintentional.

Everything J said is just reality. You can look it up yourself. I also see it with my own two eyes. There's a huge immigrant and refugee population in my city. Personally I don't see how jumping the border and working under the table as illegal slave labor is going to help your life or why it should be lauded. They should stay in their countries and fix them. Obviously US foreign policy should change, including ending the failed war on drugs, and I try to vote accordingly.

Anyway, this is not about immigration so I'm done with that subject.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let me ask pro-death penalty people:

1. Do you believe you personally "deserve" consequences for your actions?

2. If you committed a rape, do you personally feel you deserve that others kill you for it?

Of course we are legally accountable for our actions. Of course there are consequences to our actions.

3. But do you believe as a personal value that you deserve to be punished for the bad things you do?

... and rewarded for the good things?

Yes.
Yes.
All actions have consequences.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I do not believe rape justifies the death penalty.

I certainly do!

 

[McBell]

They might think that if they jumped to conclusions without asking be what I believe.
But I made it clear that I believe that the death penalty should only be used in certain circumstances and that life in prison is an alternative.

And yet I can still see how someone could get that impression...

I did not get that impression.
But apparently someone else did.

So how about you clear it up and move on, instead of beating this dead horse?

 

[Trailblazer]

Shrugs. I feel we don't deserve consequences for our actions, just that consequences are unavoidable regardless whether or not we feel we deserve it (according to whom/what?).

That is a really strange view in my opinion. If we made a moral choice then we deserve to pay for the consequences of that choice. Do you believe that the man who caused the death of George Floyd should get off scot-free?

I think of it like this. If there is a huge cliff and I jump off of it, falling and hitting my head is a consequence of my actions. Do I deserve it? No. It's just a learning experience.

That is not a good example because that is not a moral choice, it is just a stupid choice.

I don't see myself as a "sinner" deserving to be judged or handled by justice by an inside or outside party for my actions. It's actually pretty depressing to think a person deserves consequences for all his or her actions-that leaves one in a state of insecurity and, how to say, seeing oneself as not worthy enough for a good person "who can also" make mistakes and learn from them. (Which makes me wonder if that's the reason many god-believers see themselves as unworthy of god or see god greater "than they.")

There are always consequences for one's actions but that is not related to someone being unworthy to be a good person. Part of the consequences is making mistakes and learning from them. You never heard the saying that "I learned the hard way?"

No one deserves the death penalty. It's warranted by societal law, but morally, everyone deserves to live just that deserving to live doesn't exempt us from consequences of our actions; it just lets us know we are good people who make mistakes.

You are not the one who decides who deserves to live, you just have a personal opinion.
Did the victim of a heinous murderer have a second chance to live?
Apparently you just don't understand what justice is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes.
Yes.
All actions have consequences.

Why do you believe you deserve punishment?

We can't avoid consequences, but that doesn't mean we deserve-they're just part of life.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why do you believe you deserve punishment?

We can't avoid consequences, but that doesn't mean we deserve-they're just part of life.

If I've committed a crime, yes.

 

[McBell]

Do you believe that the man who caused the death of George Floyd should get off scot-free?

Whether he "deserves" more consequences is something I can not determine because I do not have all the facts.
Or all the opinions, for that matter.

Thus it will be up to the courts to decide what, if any, further consequences he should incur.

 

[Trailblazer]

I certainly do!

Can you explain why?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Can you explain why?

Because of the vast trauma rape causes. In some ways, it's better to be murdered because at least that ends at some point. I've known many people whose lives were ruined by violent rape. Decades can pass and the trauma is still there. It's basically a form of torture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is a really strange view in my opinion. If we made a moral choice then we deserve to pay for the consequences of that choice. Do you believe that the man who caused the death of George Floyd should get off scot-free?

So far I know off and online, in our laws, and all we tend to have this "we are inherently bad" feeling and somehow we need to overcome it or deserve punishment for not being able to fast or well enough. I looked up the term deserve and it mentions doing something or have qualities worthy of reward or punishment. Do we really feel we are worthy of punishment for bad actions and worthy of reward for good actions or are they the consequence or benefit of what we did wrong or right?

No. I don't know much about George Floyd to offer an opinion. I'd say any murderer deserves to live just as you and I. That doesn't relieve her or him of the consequences of their actions. It's saying they are inherently good and messed up, for lack of better words. It puts less emphasis if any on the person and more emphasis on his or her actions.

So, if you did crime X, I wouldn't throw you to the wolves. Of course, there are legal consequences for your actions while at the same time I won't exempt you from the those consequences. That's not justice, that's revenge (agreeing with the other poster about the comparison between the two).

I mean, you may not believe you're worthy to live for doing crime X but other people may think you are worthy despite the consequences of your actions.

That is not a good example because that is not a moral choice, it is just a stupid choice.

You do get the comparison?

You are worthy of life to learn from your mistakes not deserve to be punished for them.

There are always consequences for one's actions but that is not related to someone being unworthy to be a good person. Part of the consequences is making mistakes and learning from them. You never heard the saying that "I learned the hard way?"

If it's not related to someone being unworthy, then that good person doesn't deserve others to kill him for his mistakes-he learns the hard way. No?

You are not the one who decides who deserves to live, you just have a personal opinion.
Did the victim of a heinous murderer have a second chance to live?
Apparently you just don't understand what justice is.

Not in your view of morality-you're saying people don't deserve to live when their crimes warrant the death penalty. Not agreeing doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what you are saying.

The point has nothing to do with who orders who to live or die. The point is someone else (an outside party) is killing another person they feel warrants death-and-they feel they have the right to kill that person because of his or her crime. Who "they" are is unimportant in this.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If I've committed a crime, yes.

I don't get that morally. Do you want people to value you for who you are despite your actions (do you feel worthy enough to live despite the severity of your [hypothetical] crimes)?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, I do not believe rape justifies the death penalty.

Another question. What criteria do you use to determine who should be sent to death and who should live?

A lot of people give someone who killed one person a free way but throw child molesters to the snake pit solely because of the age of the victim and the nature of the crime rather than seeing victims as victims without one being more important than the other.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't get that morally. Do you want people to value you for who you are despite your actions (do you feel worthy enough to live despite the severity of your [hypothetical] crimes)?

If I valued myself, I wouldn't violate other people and expect to get away with it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Did the victim of a heinous murderer have a second chance to live?

I'd say if there were extreme punishment, it would legally be by the nature of the crime not the pain "we believe" the victim experiences. Ideally, that's why courts are supposed to go by evidence and not by sentiments. If we went off the latter, you know how many people we would murder just because of the age, well-being, or what we consider severity of a given crime?

US laws say everyone should be trialed fairly by the same legal standards. I'd hope morally, at least in the states, people would agree with that given everyone is human-no one better than the other-but our sentiments get away with it. It is dangerous in many respects.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, if you did crime X, I wouldn't throw you to the wolves. Of course, there are legal consequences for your actions while at the same time I won't exempt you from the those consequences. That's not justice, that's revenge (agreeing with the other poster about the comparison between the two).

Punishment is punishment. Why is the death penalty revenge whereas life in prison is not revenge?

I mean, you may not believe you're worthy to live for doing crime X but other people may think you are worthy despite the consequences of your actions.

You are worthy of life to learn from your mistakes not deserve to be punished for them.

It depends upon the severity of the mistake.

If it's not related to someone being unworthy, then that good person doesn't deserve others to kill him for his mistakes-he learns the hard way. No?

Evil people are not good people. It has been demonstrated that evil people do not learn from their mistakes. That's why so many are repeat offenders.

Not in your view of morality-you're saying people don't deserve to live when their crimes warrant the death penalty. Not agreeing doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what you are saying.

That is my personal opinion, yes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Another question. What criteria do you use to determine who should be sent to death and who should live?

I do not set the criteria, the courts do.

 

[Trailblazer]

If I valued myself, I wouldn't violate other people and expect to get away with it.

And if you valued other people you wouldn't violate other people.