Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am concerned about ideally because I believe that eventually it will be the reality.
In the meantime we have the laws of man to adhere to.
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Abortion and the death penalty
- Thread starter We Never Know
- Start date
In the meantime we have the laws of man to adhere to.
McBell
Unbound
Fair enough
We Never Know
No Slack
If someone wants unprotected sex but
doesn't want a baby, why wait weeks or months?
Morning after pills can be used after sex to stop a pregnancy before it starts. Most brands and generic pills are available at stores without a prescription. The only brand that requires a prescription is Ella.
If you take the pill levonorgestrel within 72 hours after you've had unprotected sex, it can reduce the risk of pregnancy by up to 87% if taken as directed. If you take Plan B One-Step within 24 hours, it is much more effective.
Edit:
My biggest problem with abortions is that they are preventable.
preventable... adjective
able to be prevented or avoided.
Many unwanted pregnancies are preventable which means many abortions are also preventable.
doesn't want a baby, why wait weeks or months?
Morning after pills can be used after sex to stop a pregnancy before it starts. Most brands and generic pills are available at stores without a prescription. The only brand that requires a prescription is Ella.
If you take the pill levonorgestrel within 72 hours after you've had unprotected sex, it can reduce the risk of pregnancy by up to 87% if taken as directed. If you take Plan B One-Step within 24 hours, it is much more effective.
Edit:
My biggest problem with abortions is that they are preventable.
preventable... adjective
able to be prevented or avoided.
Many unwanted pregnancies are preventable which means many abortions are also preventable.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Our values are different precisely because I believe in God and an afterlife, and I believe that the soul IS the person, and I believe that the soul comes into being at the moment of conception. As such, I believe that abortion is the taking of a person's life, depriving that person of a chance to live a life in this world. However, I also believe that God will recompense those whose lives were cut short and that there is a much greater life waiting for them in the next world.
Our values are not completely different though, because unlike Christian pro-lifers, as a Baha'i I believe in the right for a mother to choose. I also believe that religion has no right to legislate morality for anyone except those people who adhere to that religion, so I think that pro-lifers should keep their sanctimonious noses out of politics.
As a Baha'i, I do not believe that abortion should be used to prevent the birth of an unwanted child, but I believe that the decision should be left to the consciences of those concerned, who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings.
Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings.
Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 343
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That depends upon one's definition of what a pregnancy is. The morning after pill works three ways. If the woman has not ovulated, it prevents ovulation. If she has ovulated, it may stop the fertilization of an egg. And lastly if the egg is fertilized it prevents implantation:
FDA's Decision Regarding Plan B: Questions and Answers.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Your quote caused me to do a Google search on the topic. The first quote I came across refuted one of your claims:
"According to the Bahá’í Teachings the human soul starts with the formation of the embryo, and continues to develop and pass through stages of existence after its separation from the body. Its progress is thus infinite.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 204"
So not at conception. You have a little time;
Abortion | Bahá’í Quotes
We Never Know
No Slack
1. If the woman has not ovulated, it prevents ovulation. = not pregnant.
2. If she has ovulated, it may stop the fertilization of an egg. = not pregnant
3. And lastly if the egg is fertilized it prevents implantation. = not pregnant.
Hence "to stop a pregnancy before it starts".
To be "pregnant"
1. ovulation must occur and the egg must be "picked up" by the tube.
2. fertilization/the union between the sperm and egg needs to happen..
3. the fertilized egg must implant and begin to grow in the uterus.
Note: An ectopic pregnancy (also known as a tubal pregnancy) is one in which the fertilized egg implants somewhere other than in the uterus, most often in the fallopian tubes. Pregnancies of this sort are almost universally considered nonviable.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for pointing that out. I never realized that it was not literally at the moment of conception that the soul is formed until I researched it further.
Some of the cells from the placenta develop into an outer layer of membranes (chorion) around the developing blastocyst. Other cells develop into an inner layer of membranes (amnion), which form the amniotic sac. When the sac is formed (by about day 10 to 12), the blastocyst is considered an embryo.
Stages of Development of the Fetus - Women's Health Issues
Yes, one has 10-12 days after the conception before an embryo is formed but we well know that is not when most abortions take place. Most women do not even know they are pregnant until they miss their period, and that can be up to a month.
What you quoted from Shoghi Effendi was accurate, but please note that the information contained on the following “official” Baha’i website has the accurate summarized information on the topic of the soul.
It says “Each individual life begins when the soul associates itself with the embryo at the time of conception” and it is referring to the time of conception in a general sense.
The Rational Soul
The essential identity of every human being is a rational and immortal soul. The physical world is a place of composition and decomposition, of progress and decline. But the soul suffers no disintegration and no regression. It is “entirely out of the order of the physical creation”.1
We cannot understand the exact nature of the soul. It is, Bahá’u’lláh says, “a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind…can ever hope to unravel.’2 The soul is ‘the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him”.3
Each individual life begins when the soul associates itself with the embryo at the time of conception. But the association is not material; the soul does not enter or leave the body and does not occupy physical space. Bahá’u’lláh uses the metaphor of the sun to explain the relationship between the soul and the body: “The soul of man is the sun by which his body is illumined, and from which it draweth its sustenance, and should be so regarded.”4
The Bahá’í writings explain that such faculties of the mind as thought, reasoning, understanding and imagination are “inherent properties of the soul, even as the radiation of light is the essential property of the sun.”5 The body of a man is “like unto a mirror, his soul is as the sun, and his mental faculties even as the rays that emanate from that source of light.”6
It is through the exercise of the powers of the soul that human progress is achieved. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has said that the soul “can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul.”7 He continues, stating that there was a time when such realities “were unknown, preserved mysteries and hidden secrets; the rational soul gradually discovered them and brought them out from the plane of the invisible and the hidden into the realm of the visible.”8
The Rational Soul | What Bahá’ís Believe
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
Yes, I can. We managed to live in it for the majority of humanity's existence.
Kooky
Freedom from Sanity
It may come as a shock to you but most women typically don't choose abortions for their entertainment value, but because they ran out of other options first.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And that is why I said that it depends upon one's definition of pregnant. For what its worth I agree with your standards. The problem is that some Christians and other theists do not. They believe that the soul enters at conception, in other words when the sperm enters the egg and fertilizes it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
When was that? Where was that? Hoe long was that? How did it work out?
Of course I understand how people feel when others commit horrendous crimes, I'm disgusted/angry/whatever as much as most others, but I'm a bit surprised by those who profess some religious belief not understanding a difference between how we feel and other considerations, especially when some subscribe to a religion that promotes love of all others. Execution is just a remnant from the past, and where a long line of horrendous punishments occurred for relatively minor infringements. Perhaps you'd like us to bring back the hang, drawn, and quarter option - that no doubt pleased the crowds?I guess you do not watch many true crime shows on TV?Besides news, that is the only TV I watch. I have a passion for law and justice, always have. Some of those perpetrators deserve worse than the death penalty, it's too good for them. Do you understand what it is like to lose a child to a heinous murder? I am not a parent but I can put myself in their shoes. Many of these parents never recover, they have to live out the remaining days of their lives missing their child every single day.
PS Yes, I have watched much TV crime stuff, not so much now since it is rather predictable, and I don't see it as being that valuable either. It does tend to make one think there is more crime out there than in reality, and why would TV tend to show so much? Because it draws in the audiences, and where I'd rather see less of this - because of what I stated. Best to understand reality rather than being a pawn of others.
PPS I just finished watching the Line of Duty series (as catchup), mainly because of the intricate plot lines and good acting despite the violence, and the same applied to the Peaky Blinders series, which again stood out for its content, despite as much or more violence. So violence doesn't put me off, but it has its place.
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It certainly settles the revenge aspect, even if the hole left by their losing loved ones is never filled.
Best not to use the rhetoric of the popular press if one doesn't want to be mistaken for such.
It's rather a fact of life that rich nations tend to draw in those attracted to any better way of life (as they perceive such, and especially from poorer countries) such that there will probably be many more hopeful immigrants than any nation particularly wants and/or can handle. It mostly has been that way for some time. Many nations do have rather strict controls over such, and hence the illegal option becomes more of an issue for some of them. But I'd rather not get into arguments about any individual's exact reasons for wanting to immigrate into another nation - not without asking them first that is.
And it's a bit ripe for many to complain when our actions as rich nations often brings about the conditions for so many wanting to leave their own countries - even if such is unintentional.
We Never Know
No Slack
Each reason existed before they became pregnant.
Why do most women have an abortion....
- Not financially prepared: 40%
- Bad timing, not ready, or unplanned: 36%
- Partner-related reasons (including the relationship is bad or new, she doesn't want to be a single mother, her partner is not supportive, does not want the baby, is abusive, or is the wrong guy): 31%
- Need to focus on her other children: 29%
- Interferes with educational or vocational plans: 20%
- Not emotionally or mentally prepared: 19%
- Health-related reasons (includes concern for her own health, the health of the fetus, use of prescription or non-prescription drugs, alcohol, or tobacco): 12%
- Want a better life for a baby than she could provide: 12%
- Not independent or mature enough for a baby: 7%
- Influences from family or friends: 5%
- Doesn't want a baby or to place the baby for adoption: 4%
We Never Know
No Slack
To me its not about being religious or not being religious. Either way its preventable.
Religious affiliation;
Mainline Protestant 17.2%
Evangelical Protestant 12.8%
Roman Catholic 23.7%
Other 8.2%
None 38%
Who are the 1 in 4 American women who choose abortion?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You missed my point. Some Christians will disagree with you on Plan B. They think that anything after conception is an abortion.
We Never Know
No Slack
Its not known when conceptions actually happens however there's a in between timeline.
Conception (when the egg is fertilized by the sperm) can take place as soon as three minutes after sex or it may take up to five days. Implantation (when the fertilized egg attaches to the uterine wall) occurs five to 10 days after fertilization—which means it can happen anywhere from five to 15 days after you had sex.
How Soon After Sex Do You Actually Get Pregnant?.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Are you trying not to understand again?
We Never Know
No Slack
No but you may be.
"Plan B One-Step within 24 hours, it is much more effective."
So if conception can take up to 5 days, conception may not have even happened when plan B one-step is taken and then it will prevent conception.
Edit: So if they don't know if conception has even taken place they cant say its an abortion.
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