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Abortion: can a mother hurt the embryo?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It's not an issue of personalization. The term "baby" isn't clear. It could refer to anything that might, potentially, develop into a human: a sperm, an ovum, a zygote... What actual qualities define it? What actual, physical qualities apply? What qualities give a fœtus a claim to moral consideration?
I didn't quote that which was irrelevant and not applicable.

The term "is" clear in my view.

A sperm isn't said to be a baby, it lack an egg. An egg isn't said to be a baby, it lack a sperm.

What qualities define it?

Certainly at early gestation you could apply what you said. But it wouldn't take long before you can define it.

I believe blood is developed at the end of three weeks. The blood is different from that of the mother.
The brain is formed, if I am not mistaken, between 5-7 weeks. Different wave lengths from that of a mother.
Extremities and fingerprints are formed during the 3rd month. Different fingerprints than of parents.

The youngest premie to survive is about 21 weeks - 14.8 ounces. You DEFINITELY can call that a baby before it was birthed. It wasn't a "fetus" and then SHAZAAM, it's a baby in a matter of seconds.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Actually, it shows your bias and the denying of reality.

Let's give it a test... how many people did you hear saying... "My fetus of six months is doing fine, kicking my side every now and then" vs "My baby of six months is doing fine kicking my side every now and then".

If my estimation is correct, it is you that is not having a rational argument but rather an argument adnauseam.
Nope. You simply do not understand how intent is part of this. You are referring to people that intend to carry to term. That is the logical fallacy of cherry picking.

Try again.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Actually, it shows your bias and the denying of reality.

Let's give it a test... how many people did you hear saying... "My fetus of six months is doing fine, kicking my side every now and then" vs "My baby of six months is doing fine kicking my side every now and then".

If my estimation is correct, it is you that is not having a rational argument but rather an argument adnauseam.
Nope. You simply do not understand how intent is part of this. You are referring to people that intend to carry to term. That is the logical fallacy of cherry picking.

Try again.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Nope. You simply do not understand how intent is part of this. You are referring to people that intend to carry to term. That is the logical fallacy of cherry picking.

Try again.
saying it twice doesn't make it any more logical. :D

toe pic
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
saying it twice doesn't make it any more logical. :D

toe pic
All you have is denial. Too bad that you do not have logic on your side. You made the error of cherry picking. That is all that is needed to refute your incredibly bad circular argument.

Newsflash: Not everyone has the intent of taking a pregnancy to term.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And if you were sharing blood directly, the person needing your blood would still be a free will person.

Well said!!!

for that matter, if the person was unconscious, he would still be a person.
What does "sharing blood" have to do with anything?
A woman has the qualities that give her a claim to moral consideration. The fœtus is a separate human individual, but it lacks the features that give it personhood or a claim to moral consideration.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is relevant. For the pro-choicer the unborn is not regarded as a person with equal right to live. That's why the decision is seen as only about one's own body.

I had written, "And there's another example of the problem with ideas like personhood. The relevant distinction between the two [prematurely born fetus and an unborn fetus] for the pro-choicer is not that one is a person and the other not."

It doesn't matter to me whether you call the fetus a person or anything else. Its legal status might change, but not the moral status of aborting it. The point is that nothing that you call the fetus makes aborting it unethical. Call it a person. OK, then apparently it is moral to abort presentient persons. Call it a baby. OK, then it is moral to abort presentient babies. Call it a human being. OK, then it is moral to abort human beings. I think you get the point.

What makes the procedure immoral to me is sentience in the fetus, and that's true for non-persons as well. And non-humans. And all other sentient creatures. Was it on this thread that I mentioned that it is moral to throw a chicken egg with a presentient chick embryo in it into a hot frying pan, but not a sentient chicken? Likewise with human beings. Being human changes nothing. Calling a human fetus a person changes nothing, just as calling a chicken or a corporation a person changes nothing morally, just legally. Aborting a chicken embryo granted legal protection from becoming an omelet makes the act illegal, not immoral.

Likewise, whether a fetus is granted rights is a legal matter. You can grant those same rights to the chicken embryo in the egg if you like, but that doesn't change the moral judgment regarding aborting it at all, just the legal consequences of acting on those moral judgments.

For me, the entire question revolves around whether aborting presentient fetuses is immoral, and if not, who gets to decide if the pregnancy comes to term. All of the rest of these considerations regarding nomenclature aren't relevant to me.

Nor are they relevant to the anti-choice crowd despite their willingness to deploy them. You won't find them changing their positions based in what a fetus is called, either. Pass a law saying that fetuses are not persons and are not entitled to the protections of people, and they will ignore that and continue to call the procedure immoral.

I understand that these are probably not your values, and my telling you that they are mine doesn't change your view on abortion. Please recognize that the reverse is true as well. The values of the anti-choice movement are not my values, and nothing changes however many times they repeat that they are their values. Yes, many people find abortion unacceptable. What the rest are telling them is that is not how they feel, and repeating how much one disapproves of abortion gets no more response than to not have one if that's how you feel.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Would you be ok with someone deciding they believe that your body could be used against your will to sustain a person who has lost consciousness?
It's impossible for me to imagine I would be against helping my child. Even if I would have no contact with the child before.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
All you have is denial. Too bad that you do not have logic on your side. You made the error of cherry picking. That is all that is needed to refute your incredibly bad circular argument.

Newsflash: Not everyone has the intent of taking a pregnancy to term.
toe pic :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What does "sharing blood" have to do with anything?
A woman has the qualities that give her a claim to moral consideration. The fœtus is a separate human individual, but it lacks the features that give it personhood or a claim to moral consideration.
I'm sorry... what features is it lacking?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I don't see it as a question of bodily sovereignty. The woman and fœtus are separate individuals,as any DNA analysis would show. It is a question of personhood; of which features, or qualities support a claim of moral consideration.
That's right. Biologically/genetically the fetus is a sepatate person/individuum.
 
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