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Abortion Debate (US)

mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Wildswanderer said:
So a person without the capability to think isn't innocent? Why?
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How do you see as see innocence like you see that e.g. a cat is black? I can't see the former. That is a standard in me and not something I see.
The cat is black are not the same as the person is innocent, because the "is" is not the same is. It is 2 different contradictory version of the verb be.

The person is innocent to me, is the more correct standard of the everyday world.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
SkepticThinker said:
Are they actually born? Yep.

They've got one up on blastocysts/zygotes/fetuses that don't even have developed brains.

I guess you're going to persist with the silly comparisons. Okay then.
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So? And fetuses can indeed feel. Being actually born but incapable of caring for yourself make a difference? Actually caring for a baby inside the womb is a whole less easier than one that's been born.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
Define fetus as for feeling.
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New research shows that the nervous system of an embryo is quite complex by the time most women find out they are pregnant.

A study published in March 2017 reveals “adult-like” pattern of nerves established before the end of the first trimester. This new dose of science and technology should inform our fetal pain debate.

The study generated 3D images at the cellular level of actual human embryos ranging from 6 to 14 weeks gestation (4 to 12 weeks post-fertilization), as never before seen. These images show nerve, muscular, cardiovascular, and other organ system development. The results are incredible. For example, below is an image of the complex peripheral nerves of an embryo at 7 to 8 weeks gestation (5-6 weeks post-fertilization):
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
So? And fetuses can indeed feel. Being actually born but incapable of caring for yourself make a difference? Actually caring for a baby inside the womb is a whole less easier than one that's been born.
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Of course being born makes a difference. Being a developed human being makes a difference. Having a developed brain makes a difference. Having a life and social ties and family makes a difference.

Ever been pregnant? It sure ain't easy. It takes a giant toll on one's body and changes it forever.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
SkepticThinker said:
Of course being born makes a difference. Being a developed human being makes a difference. Having a developed brain makes a difference. Having a life and social ties and family makes a difference.

Ever been pregnant? It sure ain't easy. It takes a giant toll on one's body and changes it forever.
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I have been present for four births. I know being pregnant isn't easy. It's a whole lot easier than living with constant guilt because you killed your own child, however.
And a person is still a person no matter how small.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Wildswanderer said:
New research shows that the nervous system of an embryo is quite complex by the time most women find out they are pregnant.

A study published in March 2017 reveals “adult-like” pattern of nerves established before the end of the first trimester. This new dose of science and technology should inform our fetal pain debate.

The study generated 3D images at the cellular level of actual human embryos ranging from 6 to 14 weeks gestation (4 to 12 weeks post-fertilization), as never before seen. These images show nerve, muscular, cardiovascular, and other organ system development. The results are incredible. For example, below is an image of the complex peripheral nerves of an embryo at 7 to 8 weeks gestation (5-6 weeks post-fertilization):
Click to expand...

As it stands in your text that is not certain it is feeling. Do you understand that?
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Wildswanderer said:
I have been present for four births. I know being pregnant isn't easy. It's a whole lot easier than living with constant guilt because you killed your own child, however.
And a person is still a person no matter how small.
Click to expand...

Stop force your feeling onto other humans as if you are the universal standard. I can do that too as an "I". I am the standard and you are irrelevant. You don't accept that and I don't accept in reverse.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
Stop force your feeling onto other humans as if you are the universal standard. I can do that too as an "I". I am the standard and you are irrelevant. You don't accept that and I don't accept in reverse.
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There are certain ethical standards that are fairly universal. Not harming the innocent is one of those.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
As it stands in your text that is not certain it is feeling. Do you understand that?
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I understand that you are incorrect.
We already know that “pain receptors appear around the mouth at 4 to 5 weeks post-fertilization, followed by the development of nerve fibers, which carry stimuli to the brain. Around 6 weeks post-fertilization, the unborn child first responds to touch. By 18 weeks post-fertilization, pain receptors have appeared throughout the body.”

We also know that there is no question, biologically speaking, about whether an unborn child can feel pain by 20 weeks post-fertilization at the very latest, since by then they have the full anatomy to process pain and also the neurobiology to transmit painful sensations to the brain and to perceive pain. Studies show that babies can feel pain by their increased hormonal stress response and by wincing when they are exposed to painful stimuli.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Wildswanderer said:
There are certain ethical standards that are fairly universal. Not harming the innocent is one of those.
Click to expand...

No, not really. They are allowed as a collateral damage in war as per international rules of war. There are also other cases where you accept innocent casualties. But that is lifeboat ethics, but that is a part of life.

Your ideal world doesn't exist in the everyday world. You might be privileged and sheltered from it, but that is in the end luck.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Wildswanderer said:
I understand that you are incorrect.
We already know that “pain receptors appear around the mouth at 4 to 5 weeks post-fertilization, followed by the development of nerve fibers, which carry stimuli to the brain. Around 6 weeks post-fertilization, the unborn child first responds to touch. By 18 weeks post-fertilization, pain receptors have appeared throughout the body.”

We also know that there is no question, biologically speaking, about whether an unborn child can feel pain by 20 weeks post-fertilization at the very latest, since by then they have the full anatomy to process pain and also the neurobiology to transmit painful sensations to the brain and to perceive pain. Studies show that babies can feel pain by their increased hormonal stress response and by wincing when they are exposed to painful stimuli.
Click to expand...

Where is the brain devolved enough? Have they tested that all through the process? I get 20 weeks, but that is 20 weeks.
 
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