Abortion | Father's Rights

[Alceste]

Understood. But I'm as stubborn as a post and almost as smart so be prepared for an uphill battle.

OK. So let's start by finding some things we do agree on. Here's an olive branch:

Do you agree that paternal rights are not given enough consideration in the courts or in society when it comes to raising born children? I think that's fair to say. In my current gov't job I get a lot of information requests from fathers who are looking for their children and don't even know where they are, and the "default" assumption is that we can't tell them. I hate having to do this, but the Legal department tells me that if the father doesn't know where his kids are "there's probably a reason". I also read a lot of social services files, so I know men aren't any crappier at parenting than women. So I totally sympathize with the fathers' rights movement in the UK.

So the question is, when do these rights that I fundamentally agree with begin?

 

[Buttons*]

Why is it an extremely good post? It looks a lot more like male bashing to me.

We all see what we want to see

These comments are insulting and sexist. I don't care what her experience with men has been, we are not all to be lumped into the category of deadbeat. I'm offended that she would try and make us all appear to be losers.

The majority of people who actually do support their spouses, based on my experience, is extremely low.

guess this means that as a man my cause is hopeless. Because a woman can carry a baby and I can't, I have no rights, my feelings are not as important as a womans, my beliefs are not important at all and if the woman wants to kill my child she can do it with a smile, all so she doesn't have to live through the trauma of stretch marks.

Who said anyone would be smiling? You forget that not only is the extreme of childbirth scary, but so is abortion. No one enjoys having their uterus scraped... she may not be able to have children again. She is going to be put through pain either way, and probably more emotional trauma than any man. Unless, of course, he is SUPER sensitive. How could we ensure that a man wanting a child would actually DO all the things for it that women do by instinct? If there's a way to make that law, to make sure the man does EVERYTHING and leaves the woman out of it, I could see where that may be a possible solution. But, then the child will probably want its mama... and mama doesnt' want any part of it. What kind of emotional trauma would you be putting your CHILD through because you wanted to be a selfish parent?

I think it is safe to say that the three of us are never going to agree on this. I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them strongly.

I respect yours also. Let's debate

 

[Inky]

Normally I would agree to disagree, if you'd just said "I think the father's feelings are important", but you went and said you think the father's feelings should be enshrined in the law and protected by the courts at the expense of the feelings of the mother. When you go that far, you are affecting me, and every other woman you or I know. If some thick-skulled legislator reads this thread and thinks "Heck, yeah, Trey's really onto something there" and shoves through the type of law you propose, millions of women could lose their sovereignty over their own bodies.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Of course the man's feelings are important, but they're not important enough to let him make medical decisions for someone else against their will. It's the whole "your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins" thing. I can do what I like with my body no matter how bad it makes someone else feel. I don't think that basic idea makes me callous or insensitive.

How could we ensure that a man wanting a child would actually DO all the things for it that women do by instinct? If there's a way to make that law, to make sure the man does EVERYTHING and leaves the woman out of it, I could see where that may be a possible solution. But, then the child will probably want its mama... and mama doesnt' want any part of it. What kind of emotional trauma would you be putting your CHILD through because you wanted to be a selfish parent?

I actually disagree with this...I don't think kids go through any emotional trauma from being raised without a female around, as long as they get the proper care and affection they need from day one. Single dads should be encouraged to do a good job rather than pre-judged.

 

[Smoke]

I'm with Storm. I'll even go further.

In my opinion, forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will is tantamount to slavery.

Should the father have input into any decision concerning the fetus? Absolutely.

At the end of the day, though, it's the woman's call.

I'm with Storm and TVOR, and I'll go further yet.

The man should have input into decisions concerning the pregnancy precisely to the extent that the woman thinks he should.

 

[Buttons*]

I actually disagree with this...I don't think kids go through any emotional trauma from being raised without a female around, as long as they get the proper care and affection they need from day one. Single dads should be encouraged to do a good job rather than pre-judged.

What's your experience with this? Sure, single Dads can be really great, but I've never met one.

 

[Quiddity]

This is probably more incentive for men to not even bother to step up if such a situation would to arise. Why bother, if every man that actually wants to have a say in the decision is going to be brushed with the same trite slogans of trying to control the women. Not everybody lives in the bible belt.

 

[Smoke]

What's your experience with this? Sure, single Dads can be really great, but I've never met one.

I have. My friend Warren. Actually, sort of a former friend. Nobody ever sees him anymore, since he spends all his time with his kids.

 

[Sunstone]

Interesting thread! For the record, I don't think a father has any rights until a child is born. If you argue that a father has a right to prevent an abortion, couldn't the same grounds be used to assert that a father has a right to demand an abortion?

 

[Alceste]

This is probably more incentive for men to not even bother to step up if such a situation would to arise. Why bother, if every man that actually wants to have a say in the decision is going to be brushed with the same trite slogans of trying to control the women. Not everybody lives in the bible belt.

Hi, Victor, Trey is talking about men stepping up to the court to compel women to have children. It's not about "having a say" at all. It's about having the legal right to force a woman to have your child, or face punishment (perhaps fines or incarceration) from the state. Do you think that's a good idea?

Of course men "have a say" already. They have a say in whether sex happens in the first place, whether condoms are used, whether or not they want to be in a relationship, whether that relationship might include kids at some point, and if an unplanned pregnancy happens, they have a say whether to bolt for the door. If they choose to stick around, then they have a say in whether or not they would like to step up and be a father for life. In many cases their "say" at this stage makes all the difference in the world. But once you've expressed your opinion and exerted the full power of your persuasion, if your girlfriend is still not ready / willing to have your child, you're stuffed, and that's exactly as it should be.

I actually know quite a few men who have snuck off and had "the snip" to prevent the possibility of children without informing their wives / girlfriends. Even my dad did this after 2 kids (my mom wanted 5). Do you think women should have the legal right to compel men not to have vasectomies, or to have them reversed? What about kids? I would have liked to have a sister. Should I have been able to sue my father to force him to keep making more children against his will?

 

[Charity]

If men were given rights by law to force a woman to have his baby it would bring some disastrous consequences.
What if a man rapes a 15 year old girl, he goes to jail but learns the girl is indeed pregnant with his child. He takes her to court and tells her that she has no right to get an abortion and that she must have the child. Furthermore he wants visitation rights when the child is born........What a loving, supportive daddy he is...

For so many years there was an "epidemic" of what society called "deadbeat dads".
These people would go into hiding while starting new families and never pay a cent to the other children he had brought into the world.
It hasn't been so long ago that when a girl told a guy she was pregnant that she was usually left alone to face embarassment, humiliation and all the pain and expense of childbearing alone. Maybe to have and occasional father turn up years later feeling guilty that he did not share in his part of the responsibility of caring for the life he created.

Sorry, but I think if men want to have any input in what a woman does or does not do with her body, then they are going to have to earn the right to do so. I know that all men aren't the same when it comes to responsibility and many do want to share in this situation with the woman. Even so I believe the woman should be the one to make the ultimate decision as to what happens with her body.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Interesting thread! For the record, I don't think a father has any rights until a child is born. If you argue that a father has a right to prevent an abortion, couldn't the same grounds be used to assert that a father has a right to demand an abortion?

This reminds me of the line from the movie "An Officer and a Gentleman". When David Keith's character (Worley) is asked by Richard Gere (as Mayo), what he will do about his newfound girlfriend's pregnancy (she wasn't really pregnant, but she was using it to trap him into a quick marriage).
Worley replies with "As the dad, I want to do the right thing - I want to pay for the abortion".

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Ok, I’ve noticed that with the complexity of the topic and the fact that there are multiple questions and discussions going on, that some assumptions have been made that while fair, considering the information available, are not entirely accurate. So, allow me to more clearly define my position.

What are we talking about? Well, I’m talking about what rights a father has in the fate of his unborn child. This has gotten fuzzy due to the introduction of the legal system into the discussion. I have said that it is the governments job to ensure that a persons rights are being upheld. However, I haven’t been pushing a legal agenda so to speak. If some law maker tomorrow said that they would be passing a law that covered a father’s rights, my first reactions would be suspicion, concern and even fear. Our political and legal system has not shown any ability what so ever for being able to attempt such legislation fairly and correctly. So, while I still state it is the job of the government to ensure the rights of its people are properly upheld, I have no illusions of our government being able to actually do that.

Trauma, both physical and emotional. My aggravation here has been with what appears to me as a disregard of the males trauma. Most men probably don’t experience trauma over this issue but some do and the fact that they are in the minority should not matter. When it comes to human rights, statistics shouldn’t be the deciding factor. Also, I have seen an exaggeration of the trauma experienced by women. In this thread, child birth has repeated been held up as the most horribly painful and physically life altering experiences that could ever be endured. If that is so, why do women continue to do it? I’m sorry but this just doesn’t ring true to me, especially with so many counter descriptions of how wonderful the experience is. However, I will apologize for my "trauma of stretch marks" comment, it was in response to the belittling of male emotions but 2 wrongs don’t make a right and I should have held my temper. Very sorry.

In conclusion. I don’t expect there to be any laws created to protect a fathers rights. I don’t imagine very many males will cry over it. But, suppose someone who has read this thread were to become pregnant, remember what she read here, and decide to ask the father what he wants instead of getting an abortion in secret. And maybe he decides he wants it and she gives the baby up to him. Well, just the fact that something like that might happen, then it’s worth discussing and arguing over. Information is power. We don’t have to agree, on this subject and I doubt that many of us will. But as long as we can state our opinions so that others can see them and then make up their own minds with more information, well then we are doing good work here.

Now, on a personal note, I’ll be out of touch for most of today so responses may be delayed.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It seems the reason that abortion is a right at all, is the same reason that the father has no legal input in the decision. Whether it's the state telling a woman what she can/cannot do with her body, or a man she slept with telling her what she can/cannot do with her body, it's still someone eliminating her right to choose.

It's got to be complete rights over your own body, or else where do you draw the line?

 

[Storm]

Trey, I don't think the father's feelings should be belittled. However, referring to his "rights" inevitably brings the law into the question. If you're just saying that the woman should take the man's feelings into consideration, I couldn't agree more, but the decision is still hers.

However, when it comes to actual rights, he has the right to wear a condom. He has no rights to prevent (or demand) an abortion.

Thank you for your apology. I can't speak for others, but as the persona who complained, I accept.

 

[Storm]

It seems the reason that abortion is a right at all, is the same reason that the father has no legal input in the decision. Whether it's the state telling a woman what she can/cannot do with her body, or a man she slept with telling her what she can/cannot do with her body, it's still someone eliminating her right to choose.

It's got to be complete rights over your own body, or else where do you draw the line?

Exactly.

 

[Buttercup]

Trey,

Even if we keep the law out of the equation (which I tried to do earlier), it's still unethical (to me anyway) to force your desires on a woman's body.

Since it seems as though you want to direct the discussion away from the legal aspect and more toward the father's feelings and wants, please explain (hypothetically) how you see it as ethical to force your wife or girlfriend into having a baby she doesn't want? You don't seem to care about her desires so I'm confused. In what type of scenario should your desire have precedent over hers?

 

[Comicaze247]

About men's emotional trauma, I don't think even that is equal to a woman's. I mean, he's not obligated to feel it (I'll expand on that in a moment). Not all men feel bad about it other than "oh, I kinda wanted to be a dad."

But women on the other hand, something is changing biologically in their bodies just due to an abortion. Women have been reported to have terrifying nightmares after an abortion. Also, her hormones get thrown all out of whack, which will really mess her up both emotionally and physically. Back when I was still Catholic taking Sunday school, a speaker came in talking about her experience with her abortion. She herself had those nightmares (usually involving a baby) and inexplicably hated all men for a while.

This biological change does NOT happen to the men. So no matter what, whether she decides to have an abortion or decides to keep the child, the mother suffers MUCH MORE than the father.

 

[McBell]

Trauma, both physical and emotional. My aggravation here has been with what appears to me as a disregard of the males trauma. Most men probably don’t experience trauma over this issue but some do and the fact that they are in the minority should not matter. When it comes to human rights, statistics shouldn’t be the deciding factor. Also, I have seen an exaggeration of the trauma experienced by women. In this thread, child birth has repeated been held up as the most horribly painful and physically life altering experiences that could ever be endured. If that is so, why do women continue to do it? I’m sorry but this just doesn’t ring true to me, especially with so many counter descriptions of how wonderful the experience is. However, I will apologize for my "trauma of stretch marks" comment, it was in response to the belittling of male emotions but 2 wrongs don’t make a right and I should have held my temper. Very sorry.

How many pregnancies have you been personally involved with?
I am not talking about visiting a pregnant friend, or knowing a co-worker who was pregnant.

I am talking about being there from the beginning all the way through the delivery, then till the child was at least two years old.

Me personally, I have been there for seven, two of which were mine, three were close personal friends, and the remaining two were family.

Now being a male myself who has actually been through the inconvenience of having my girlfriend get an abortion against my wishes, I can tell you flat out that what the women go through during and after pregnancy is quite a bit worse than anything a man goes through.

So I can fully understand why your hangnail drama has been dismissed by the women here who have had children.

In conclusion. I don’t expect there to be any laws created to protect a fathers rights. I don’t imagine very many males will cry over it. But, suppose someone who has read this thread were to become pregnant, remember what she read here, and decide to ask the father what he wants instead of getting an abortion in secret. And maybe he decides he wants it and she gives the baby up to him. Well, just the fact that something like that might happen, then it’s worth discussing and arguing over. Information is power. We don’t have to agree, on this subject and I doubt that many of us will. But as long as we can state our opinions so that others can see them and then make up their own minds with more information, well then we are doing good work here.

I agree.

 

[Storm]

Also, from a strictly personal perspective, I see another problem with Trey's scenario. I think giving up my baby for adoption - even to the biological father - would be a hell of a lot more emotionally traumatic than an early abortion.

I've lost three pregnancies in the first trimester, and carried one to term. I'm not saying that the losses were easy - I was devastated. But what I felt for them was "but a moon-cast shadow" of what I felt for Raven by the time he was born. To experience the unspeakable intimacy of carrying a child, feeling it move inside you, and then walk away? I couldn't do it.

 

[3.14]

a men should always have the right to demand an abortion it is afterall his genetic material thats used to build the child, if this right is denied to them can you realy blame them if they create an "accident" that kills the fetus?


(i'm just gona do it the easy way il just put a copyright on my dna and accuse here of infringing it and demand it to be removed)