Abortion | Father's Rights

[Buttercup]

Also, from a strictly personal perspective, I see another problem with Trey's scenario. I think giving up my baby for adoption - even to the biological father - would be a hell of a lot more emotionally traumatic than an early abortion.

I've lost three pregnancies in the first trimester, and carried one to term. I'm not saying that the losses were easy - I was devastated. But what I felt for them was "but a moon-cast shadow" of what I felt for Raven by the time he was born. To experience the unspeakable intimacy of carrying a child, feeling it move inside you, and then walk away? I couldn't do it.

But, your perspective is from a wanted child pregnancy. Isn't his discussion about a woman who doesn't want a child?

 

[Storm]

Good point.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am the father of four children, two were unplanned, and of the two, one was born out of wedlock. I am fortunate in that my wife and I have been together for over 19 yrs, and we have raised our four children in a loving household.
That being said, if for instance, my wife, then my girlfriend, had decided to terminate her first pregnancy, or her last after we had been married. I would have been hurt, and distraught at the loss of my potential children. But, ultimately, after all my begging, pleading and threats. The decision would have been hers. And justifiably so.
It is her body, not mine. And I would never push for the right of a father to have control over a womans body.

Trey, I have read NEXT. The premise of a corporation having control over another body is as distasteful to me as a man having control over a womans.

 

[Alceste]

What are we talking about? Well, I’m talking about what rights a father has in the fate of his unborn child. This has gotten fuzzy due to the introduction of the legal system into the discussion. I have said that it is the governments job to ensure that a persons rights are being upheld. However, I haven’t been pushing a legal agenda so to speak. If some law maker tomorrow said that they would be passing a law that covered a father’s rights, my first reactions would be suspicion, concern and even fear.

Hallelujah - I agree! If we're talking "rights" in a fuzzy, non-legislative, ethical sense, like the "right" to liberty, privacy, justice, freedom of religion, etc. then men in general have the right to express an opinion on the subject of abortion - particularly when they are affected. But they don't have the right to impose their opinion on a woman with a different opinion when it comes to an unplanned pregnancy. The woman's right of inalienable sovereignty over her own body takes precedence over the man's right to decide whether or not the pregnancy should be terminated. Likewise, the man's sovereignty over his own body takes precedence over a woman's right to decide whether or not he should have a vasectomy. The answer to disagreements in individual relationships on these topics is communication and negotiation between the two people involved. I don't think my father was wrong to have a vasectomy, for example, he was wrong not to consult my mother about it. He didn't even know she wanted five kids until I told him 17 years later, because she told me how hurt she was that he'd snuck off and done this. On the other hand, even if he had done the "right" thing and communicated his wishes begin with, she would have been "wrong" to try to use any other means than communication to stop him if they couldn't agree.

Trauma, both physical and emotional. My aggravation here has been with what appears to me as a disregard of the males trauma. Most men probably don’t experience trauma over this issue but some do and the fact that they are in the minority should not matter. When it comes to human rights, statistics shouldn’t be the deciding factor.

I agree here too, and would even go further to say that the trauma of men who are forcefully separated from their (born) children is grossly underestimated and undervalued by society. IME, it's actually the majority of men (at least in my generation) who are traumatized when the mother of their children uses visitation rights as a weapon of emotional or financial extortion. Society seems to endorse this injustice because men are statistically more likely to be physically or sexually abusive, or maybe because they are presumed not to feel attachments to their children that are as significant as the attachments of women. I'd say men should have completely equal rights when it comes to raising their children - but not until they are born.

In this thread, child birth has repeated been held up as the most horribly painful and physically life altering experiences that could ever be endured. If that is so, why do women continue to do it?

Perhaps because they want children more than they fear the pain of childbirth? The fact that some women are willing to endure excruciating pain and permanent physical transformation in order to bring a child into the world doesn't make the indisputable fact of the pain and transformation any less daunting. It only indicates that mothers are made of extremely tough stuff. Imagine a guy going through one of those scenes in Aliens, willingly, because he thought the slimy little monsters were kinda cute.

You also neglect to take note of the fact that as soon as not doing it became a realistic option via birth control, surgery and / or abortion, birth rates declined sharply, and continue to decline. In Europe, for example, the population in many countries is actually declining. 70 or 80 years ago, it was pretty much the norm for a woman to have 5, 6, 10, 15 kids. Now it makes the news.

I’m sorry but this just doesn’t ring true to me, especially with so many counter descriptions of how wonderful the experience is.

The experience is sometimes described as wonderful because the woman is in such excruciating pain her body floods with endorphins just to keep her heart from stopping. Also, I have it on good authority - my mother's - that those stories are a lie. Making and raising a child is wonderful. Pushing one out of your womb is a nightmare. Although I'm just passing on what I've heard from my mother friends. I haven't had any kids, so I invite anyone who has to weigh in on the subject.

 

[Inky]

In conclusion. I don’t expect there to be any laws created to protect a fathers rights. I don’t imagine very many males will cry over it. But, suppose someone who has read this thread were to become pregnant, remember what she read here, and decide to ask the father what he wants instead of getting an abortion in secret. And maybe he decides he wants it and she gives the baby up to him. Well, just the fact that something like that might happen, then it’s worth discussing and arguing over. Information is power. We don’t have to agree, on this subject and I doubt that many of us will. But as long as we can state our opinions so that others can see them and then make up their own minds with more information, well then we are doing good work here.

Agreed. (Darn, I just wrote a big long post about the legal stuff and while I was writing this post came up, so it wasn't really relevant anymore, so I deleted it.)

When someone says "rights", I generally think "legal rights", so if those are off the table it's a totally different scenario. I don't want anyone to be able to throw me in jail for having a surgery that I determined was the healthiest option. But, if I was pregnant, of course the guy's feelings would matter to me. If the biological father was someone I trusted to be a good parent, and was willing to pay for the expenses of pregnancy I would have avoided with abortion, I'd consider carrying it for him if I was in a life situation that made that reasonable. But it would be about empathy, not rights.

I know this thread isn't about whether abortion as a whole is OK, but I think a lot of it boils down to that...to some, having an abortion is killing someone else's child. To others, it's denying them the opportunity to potentially have a child in the near future. Since I fall into the second camp, I don't see it as any more of a rights issue any more than using birth control is denying someone's right to have a kid. But, I'll keep it in mind as a reason to have empathy in a situation like that.

 

[Alceste]

But, your perspective is from a wanted child pregnancy. Isn't his discussion about a woman who doesn't want a child?

It is, but as a woman who has terminated an unplanned pregnancy in the first trimester, I can say I would have felt exactly the way Storm would have. It's not that I don't want kids at all. I love kids! Kids love me! I was even a nanny at the time. I do want kids, but I didn't want one at that time, or with that man. If I hadn't gone for a chemically induced miscarriage early on I know I would have kept it. Are you kidding me? Go through the physical ruination of creating a new life, only to hand over to somebody else the experience of raising a child? No way! That's the payoff. If I ever make a new human, I'll do it with somebody I love who I know will be a good father and partner, and I'll raise it myself, thank you very much.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

(i'm just gona do it the easy way il just put a copyright on my dna and accuse here of infringing it and demand it to be removed)

You can't copyright your DNA. It's not your original work. If the copyright of your DNA belongs to anyone, it's your parents.

Which I guess brings in another wrinkle: should the grandparents of the fetus have a say in things?

 

[Buttercup]

It is, but as a woman who has terminated an unplanned pregnancy in the first trimester, I can say I would have felt exactly the way Storm would have. It's not that I don't want kids at all. I love kids! Kids love me! I was even a nanny at the time. I do want kids, but I didn't want one at that time, or with that man. If I hadn't gone for a chemically induced miscarriage early on I know I would have kept it. Are you kidding me? Go through the physical ruination of creating a new life, only to hand over to somebody else the experience of raising a child? No way! That's the payoff. If I ever make a new human, I'll do it with somebody I love who I know will be a good father and partner, and I'll raise it myself, thank you very much.

Great example, thanks. And, since you have been in the situation Trey is describing, you can very well imagine the personal horror if your boyfriend forced you to carry the fetus to term because he wanted the baby.

 

[Alceste]

Great example, thanks. And, since you have been in the situation Trey is describing, you can very well imagine the personal horror if your boyfriend forced you to carry the fetus to term because he wanted the baby.

Absolutely! Although I don't go for guys who would do such a thing. As it turned out, he actually did want a child, but we didn't get around to discussing it until later, when we were trying to sort out my issues about his lack of support during our (brief) unplanned pregnancy. He didn't even turn up to the appointment, and never said a word about what he wanted. If he did want to weigh in, he totally missed his chance. He might even have made a difference if he'd said something. But... * shrug *. What's done is done. I'm certain, though, that we wouldn't have stayed together even if I'd had his child. When I got a positive result from that stupid little stick, my very first thought was that I absolutely did not want to start a family with him. That conviction never wavered for a moment. He was a great guy, but I always felt like he was seeing somebody else (some imaginary fantasy girl, not another actual woman) when he looked at me. That kind of subtle, vexing doubt can be ignored as long as an actual future together is a purely hypothetical and idealized prospect, but an unplanned pregnancy makes it real in a way that nothing else can.

 

[Smoke]

It only indicates that mothers are made of extremely tough stuff.

My students constantly amaze me. (I'm a cosmetology teacher.) The other day, one of them was having contractions ten minutes apart. I asked if her she needed to go to the hospital, and she said, No, it's nothing to worry about unless they're five minutes apart. I told her to go sit down and not worry about doing any work that evening, and she went to sit down. Thirty minutes later, she was back on her feet, doing hair.

 

[DallasApple]

I think there is a problem when it takes two people to create a life, and only one person to kill it.

No it takes two people to have sex and each donate a cell that get a life started.It takes ONE person..(the woman) to provide the space ..the nutrients..the oxygen..(her very blood)..the very air that she breaths she "donates" to the growing life..and its to her DETRIMENT and at HER risk to do so..Then its up to the woman to go through the labor and delivery which is serious business...its in fact dangerous ..and will leave her body permenently altered in some way sometimes severely.

HER life during pregnancy..delivery and for some time after the birth (this is JUST to get a full term baby here) is affected far and beyond a man "achieving an orgasm" which if we are honest is all he has to do.

And this is only the "physical" aspects of it.A man has an orgasm..walks off..and can continue to work and play and live his life as usual..The woman did the same sex act(even though she may not of even gotten an orgasm out of the whole deal)..and doesnt run off continuing to enjoy lets say....ROLLER skating..(because she might fall and hurt herself or the baby)..WHAT?? She was eight months pregnant and up for a job against a non pregnant male that she was MORE qualified for and she didnt get it????WONDER why???

What??She is put on bed rest from the 20th week and cant do a darn thing but lay there to "protect the life that BOTH created"????OH too bad..she can re-enroll in school later on down the road.

OOPS...the baby is breach..were gonna have to saw through your abnominal muscles..AND your uterus...We can sew them back up but they will never be the same again..And dont worry honey..we can go in and tack your bladder back up to where it belongs so you dont have urine incontenence for carrying that 9lb baby around.OOPS ...you delivered vaginally aren't you "proud"? too bad we had to take a scalpal and do an "episiotomy"..Sorry your private area will have a scar there for the rest of your life..Hey!! If your lucky it wont cause "pain during sex" for the rest of your life..

And dont worry about those stretch marks honey that are as deep and the grand canyon..those are "badges of honor"..Its just a good thing that the father legally forced you to have "his" baby...Cuz the daddy got rights too ya know..It was "half" his creation.

Two "create life" BULL ...ONE has an ejaculation..(the man) the WOMAN "creates"..

The only reason this subject doesnt "really" tic me off? Is because its pathetic you can take a few rare cases that a man is against(his grilfriend/wife) having an abortion and try and give the man the rights over the decision for all women.Its a joke.

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

Woot! I invite women who have actually have kids to weigh in on the experience of childbearing and I get Dallas! Super-wonder-mother extraordinaire! My opinion is vindicated! Mwahahahaha!!! You would know better than anyone here, my love, including me. *smooch*.

 

[DallasApple]

Also..Not that I dont have "any sympathy" on the occasion a man is ripped and torn apart(emotionally) because for whatever reason..REGARDLESS of his pleas and pledges of support of a child that the "woman" doesnt want because she is 'afraid of a little pain" ????????(and I agree ...probably one in 3 billion abortions have a sad daddy that want the baby but the woman just doesnt care about his rights only about her sexy body and is afraid of pain a "little pain")

Sure this needs to be broached..for about 5 seconds..Then move on the the reality.Probably close to 100% of women who have abortions do so with the man in TOTAL agreement..or he isnt even around and could care less..or he is in fact the one convincing her to do it..HE isnt the ONE that has to choose..SHE is..SHE is the one that has to have an abortion or carry on with a pregnancy and raise a child or give it away(that he doesnt want).. NOT him!She is the one that faces the "hatred"...

If she has an abortion???The "men" the "other half" of the life WALK away..SHE is the "mother of a dead baby" ..SHE is the murderer..SHE is the "monster" that would kill "her" own child.Even if HE the daddy took her there ..agreed to it..paid for it ..and encouraged her to do it..

That is the injustice..Men get to skip off and say.."its was her choice"..even if they AGREED with her "choice"..and were intrumental in "helping " her make it..

Sorry I have "some" but little sympathy for the man ..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

This is pretty much my thought as well.

Now before anyone whines about being in the situation, I was.
Now do not get me wrong, I wanted her to have the child.
However, I respected the fact that it is her body, not mine.

Mestemia my brother..

I just wanted to tell you I am in no way trying to minimize your feelings(with my big mouth)..Thanks for sharing that..You're a cool dude..

Love

Dallas

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Ok, we have only been looking at one of a father’s potential rights and even I will concede the point that our government and legal system would only screw up any attempt to create laws concerning when a woman can and can’t have an abortion. But what about other rights.

If a woman has the final decision on the pregnancy does the father at least have the right to know? Should he be informed and at least have the opportunity to offer to take the child after birth? One of the reasons I think this topic is so important is that currently, the father doesn’t even have the opportunity to make his case. If the woman maintained the final decision would you support a law the required notification of the father and a period of time for him to state his case?

This does create a privacy issue. If a woman is sleeping with multiple men and doesn’t want them to know you have a problem. Which right would trump, right to privacy or right to know?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ok, we have only been looking at one of a father’s potential rights and even I will concede the point that our government and legal system would only screw up any attempt to create laws concerning when a woman can and can’t have an abortion. But what about other rights.

If a woman has the final decision on the pregnancy does the father at least have the right to know? Should he be informed and at least have the opportunity to offer to take the child after birth? One of the reasons I think this topic is so important is that currently, the father doesn’t even have the opportunity to make his case. If the woman maintained the final decision would you support a law the required notification of the father and a period of time for him to state his case?

This does create a privacy issue. If a woman is sleeping with multiple men and doesn’t want them to know you have a problem. Which right would trump, right to privacy or right to know?

If you're having unprotected sex with a woman you don't know well enough to know she would tell you if she got pregnant, then I'd go out on a limb and say you're probably not overly worried about being informed if she is pregnant.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

If you're having unprotected sex with a woman you don't know well enough to know she would tell you if she got pregnant, then I'd go out on a limb and say you're probably not overly worried about being informed if she is pregnant.

Just one scenario. Should we decide yes or know based on this situation only? Seems a pretty poor example to base policy on.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Just one scenario. Should we decide yes or know based on this situation only? Seems a pretty poor example to base policy on.

True, it was more of a jab then a serious refutation.

However, I think making it mandatory to inform the father, apart from being enforceable in any meaningful way, is an extension of the woman's right to choose. No adult person should have any legal responsibility to someone who they don't have some form of contract with (this includes marriage).

And really, what would the purpose be other than to cause potential problems. If the woman was in a situation where she didn't want to tell the father, then legally forcing her to is only forcing her into a situation she obviously didn't want to be in for some reason.

 

[Inky]

I think requiring the woman to inform the potential father is problematic. In many cases it could lead to abuse. (I wish there was a word for "man who has fertilized an egg but does not have a child yet"...saying "father" kind of pre-judges the debate since it implies the existence of a child).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If a woman has the final decision on the pregnancy does the father at least have the right to know? Should he be informed and at least have the opportunity to offer to take the child after birth? One of the reasons I think this topic is so important is that currently, the father doesn’t even have the opportunity to make his case. If the woman maintained the final decision would you support a law the required notification of the father and a period of time for him to state his case?

To what end? Information is only useful if it can be acted on in some way. How do you expect a prospective father who hasn't been voluntarily informed of the pregnancy by the prospective mother to act?