Abortion | Father's Rights

[McBell]

We've gotten past that and are now discussing notification. If the decision remains with the woman, do you think the father has the right to know about the pregnancy or if the woman can get an abortion in secret.

I say let her get the abortion in secret if she so desires.
As was mentioned earlier, why bother the man if there is nothing he can do about it legally?

 

[Alceste]

We've gotten past that and are now discussing notification. If the decision remains with the woman, do you think the father has the right to know about the pregnancy or if the woman can get an abortion in secret.

I'd say if it's a situation where the child is conceived in a loving, healthy relationship (big if), informing the father she's pregnant would be the hypothetical "right" thing to do - but that's a long way short of saying the father has the "right" to know, no matter what. If she's in that kind of relationship and chooses to keep her pregnancy a secret, then she's probably in the wrong, but she hasn't violated any of his fundamental rights. What harm could possibly come to him if he never even knows he fertilized an egg? Honesty, integrity and open communication are ethical, but we don't have the right to try to make everybody else honest and open. It's something we ourselves need to strive to be, regardless of how everybody else behaves.

That stupid law somebody brought up earlier, where a woman couldn't get an abortion without a signed consent form from the father, is an example of your beliefs in action. Do you think the father's consent is the "right" thing to require if, for example, she is pregnant because she was raped by a relative, or if she knows her parents would disown her if they found out, or the father is not discreet enough to prevent everybody else from knowing?

While honesty is not recognized as a fundamental human right, privacy is. Just as we have sovereignty over our bodies, we have sovereignty over what we choose to share with others. I personally think that with a partner we should share as much as possible, especially when facing a difficult decision, but I realize nobody ever got hurt by something they didn't even know about (and never found out).

 

[DallasApple]

Technically speaking, it is the state that is holding the father financially responsible. Doppleganger could confirm (or refute) this, but I believe that an adult cannot legally waive the rights of a minor.

That is, however, not the point that Knowledge Seeker was making. He was saying that, by choosing to carry the pregnancy to term, rather than aborting the fetus, is tantamount to dictating the obligations of the man.

Which is why I pointed out that the man actually made the choice at the time of conception - not the woman, the fetus, or the state.

I see..The argument is the woman has ALL the rights and the man has none.He has no choice in the matter.Which he does..by opting to never "risk" or "minimize' the risk of getting a woman pregnant.Because he knows ahead of time..after that? If she does get pregnant she does have the rights to carry on with the pregnancy and he is legally obligated to the childs welfare after it is born.

The sentiment here is the poor man has not say so..and is beign "demonized"..I think its the other way around.The woman is the one being grilled here in this thread..She is either holding a man financially hostage by not wanting to abort ..or she is "killing' his baby that he wants to be born and raise himself.

The bottom line is all be it not always 'fair" to the man..There is absolutley no other way to set up the system for it not to be "grossly" unfair/unethical to women and children.Therefore the man knowing this full well ahead of time..can not complain afterwards that she didnt use BC either.

Where would it end if men were allowed to simply say "I wanted her to abort therefore I shouldnt have to support the child"...

Would this apply to married men as well? and at what point could he confess in the childs life he never wanted it therefore Im not paying???

Its not about whos "fault" it is she got pregnant when we are talking about mens rights.Its you know your rights going in..you know they are limited..therfore don't complain afterwards that you have no rights.Wear a condom with spermacide.You absolutley have that right.

Thats what I have told my middle son who is 19.TAKE control of your reproductive rigths.I dont want to hear it was her idea to have sex..and she said she was on the pill..(thats how I got my beloved grandbaby by my oldest son by the way)..I did not feel sorry for my son.To have him tell it..if you believed him ..she raped him.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

That stupid law somebody brought up earlier, where a woman couldn't get an abortion without a signed consent form from the father, is an example of your beliefs in action.

Besides that it couldnt be enforced anyway.All a woman would have to say is .."I dont know who the father is..".

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Technically speaking, it is the state that is holding the father financially responsible. Doppleganger could confirm (or refute) this, but I believe that an adult cannot legally waive the rights of a minor.

I understand this too.And it has to be this way..women are under the same "laws"..Its not just men that pay child support.(anymore)..If the state didnt hold some "hostage" unfortunately many chidlren would suffer. (some)Men and women alike would walk off and never pay a dime to support their children.Its sad ..but true..

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

Besides that it couldnt be enforced anyway.All a woman would have to say is .."I dont know who the father is..".

Love

Dallas

True enough, but then you're adding the humiliation of trying to make strangers believe you're a tramp (even when it's a lie) to the already traumatizing experience of abortion. Why bother?

 

[Storm]

Someone asked what the purpose of requiring paternal notification would be, and I have yet to see it answered.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Someone asked what the purpose of requiring paternal notification would be, and I have yet to see it answered.

So that the father could offer options that the mother had not thought of yet. If the father wants to take care of the baby and is willing to take full responsibility after birth the mother could then take that fact into consideration while making her decision.

 

[Storm]

Fair enough, but...
1) It's just not strong enough to outweigh the other considerations that have been brought up, sorry.
2) As Dallas said, it's unenforceable.

 

[DallasApple]

True enough, but then you're adding the humiliation of trying to make strangers believe you're a tramp (even when it's a lie) to the already traumatizing experience of abortion. Why bother?

Abortion clinics arent that judgmental for one.Plus you can always "wink" when you tell them that.Because Im telling you if the law was fathers must "consent" women who felt the need for whatever reason to not inform the father would lie out their patooties..

Or they could say..the father was dead.Or they could say the father ran off and she couldnt find him.She doesnt have to say she doesnt even know who he is..is what I mean..You could get creative with that if you had to.

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

So that the father could offer options that the mother had not thought of yet. If the father wants to take care of the baby and is willing to take full responsibility after birth the mother could then take that fact into consideration while making her decision.

Oh, yeah, If I were a 13 year old girl pregnant by my father, priest or geography teacher I would simply LOVE to discuss all the options with him. Wouldn't you? I'd especially enjoy having to bring him an abortion permission form, knowing that - once again - he has complete power over what happens to my body.

It might look like one of those unfair man-bashing statements you keep seeing everywhere at first glance, but please consider it anyway. Rape is the biggest problem with your proposal. One in four women (in the UK) have experienced rape or attempted rape. That's a statistic, not an opinion. 97 % of these women knew their attacker, so could hypothetically inform him of the consequences of his assault. Would you say the father still has a right to know, even if the child was conceived by rape?

I bring it up because I'm certain the statistics for men who would want to propose full responsibility for an accidental child are nowhere near one in four. They're probably closer to one in a million. So your plan would require a HUGE number of rape victims to try to get an abortion permission slip signed by their rapists, on the off chance that one guy in a million might actually want entire responsibility for the kid. How is that fair?

 

[Alceste]

Abortion clinics arent that judgmental for one.Plus you can always "wink" when you tell them that.Because Im telling you if the law was fathers must "consent" women who felt the need for whatever reason to not inform the father would lie out their patooties..

Or they could say..the father was dead.Or they could say the father ran off and she couldnt find him.She doesnt have to say she doesnt even know who he is..is what I mean..You could get creative with that if you had to.

Love

Dallas

fair enough. "I think I caught it from a toilet seat."

 

[Inky]

I'd say if it's a situation where the child is conceived in a loving, healthy relationship (big if), informing the father she's pregnant would be the hypothetical "right" thing to do - but that's a long way short of saying the father has the "right" to know, no matter what. If she's in that kind of relationship and chooses to keep her pregnancy a secret, then she's probably in the wrong, but she hasn't violated any of his fundamental rights.

I think that's a good point...there's a huge difference between saying someone should have something and has every reason to expect it, and saying they have a right to it. People can participate in all kinds of awful betrayals and generally behave unethically without actually violating anyone's rights. If I've been married twenty years and find out my spouse has been seeing my best friend the whole time, it was a terrible thing to do, but they didn't violate my rights. Same with abortion.

 

[DallasApple]

They're probably closer to one in a million.

Exactly..And I would venture to say..a woman who is in a relationship with a man like that..that not only is 'willing" but "realistically capable(not living in never never polyanna land) she wouldnt be considering abortion in the first place.I know I wouldnt have.A man that tells a woman ..I really really want this baby..and look..see I can provide for him or her..and I can and will love the baby .....a woman that hears that..and sees tangible evidence of it..is most likely not going to abort because she is "afraid of a "little" pain.

In fact I would venture to say..many women have the baby REGARDLESS of the fact she knows she can NOT depend on the fathers "willingness" or involvement..Or she opts for abortion for those reasons.

Women are not running around having abortions behind a mens backs that are stable and loving and and just DYING to have a baby.

Im not saying that "never" happens..But its probably one in 3 billion.

Love

Dallas

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Oh, yeah, If I were a 13 year old girl pregnant by my father, priest or geography teacher I would simply LOVE to discuss all the options with him. Wouldn't you? I'd especially enjoy having to bring him an abortion permission form, knowing that - once again - he has complete power over what happens to my body.

Ok, everyone has some very valid points but I have to say this one stinks and I'm very tired of it coming up. I think it's pretty safe to say that in a case of abuse, the father has no rights and I have no idea why people keep bringing it up. If the pregnancy is of an abusive relationship the father has no rights and should be thrown in jail. If someone else wants to speak up for rapists rights let them create their own thread but I would appreciate it if folks stop impying that I was in favor of them because I think a father has rights.

 

[Smoke]

I understand this too.And it has to be this way..women are under the same "laws"..Its not just men that pay child support.(anymore)..If the state didnt hold some "hostage" unfortunately many chidlren would suffer. (some)Men and women alike would walk off and never pay a dime to support their children.Its sad ..but true..

The state has, on behalf of all of us, an interest in making people support their own children. Otherwise, the children become a public charge. It's not just that children suffer because of deadbeat dads and moms, but that we all end up paying for their irresponsibility.

 

[Alceste]

Ok, everyone has some very valid points but I have to say this one stinks and I'm very tired of it coming up. I think it's pretty safe to say that in a case of abuse, the father has no rights and I have no idea why people keep bringing it up. If the pregnancy is of an abusive relationship the father has no rights and should be thrown in jail. If someone else wants to speak up for rapists rights let them create their own thread but I would appreciate it if folks stop impying that I was in favor of them because I think a father has rights.

Sure I would LOVE to throw rapists in jail, and so would ALL women, but at this point in time it simply can't be done. About 6 % of rape charges result in a conviction at this time. "Did you wear a skirt?" "Yes" " NOT GUILTY." That's all it takes in a court of law. If you think differently, I'm sorry to ruin your fantasy land, but you're just deluded.

This is not a point that "stinks." It's the whole point, the giant flaw in your assumption of male "rights" over the bodies of women. I don't hate men, as I've said before, but I DO walk down the center of the road with my house keys poking out between my fingers when I come home late at night because I KNOW that even if I have no money or jewelery, I still have something a man might want to steal. There is no way to get away from it. You might not like to hear it, but it's NORMAL. We all do it. (The urban ones, anyway.)

Trey, I think you're a decent guy, and that if YOU, PERSONALLY ever got into a situation where your girlfriend were pregnant, she'd be doing herself a huge favor to share this with you and give you a voice.

However, your desire to extend your right to have a say in her decision does not, and can not, extend to ALL women and ALL men everywhere.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Ok, everyone has some very valid points but I have to say this one stinks and I'm very tired of it coming up. I think it's pretty safe to say that in a case of abuse, the father has no rights and I have no idea why people keep bringing it up. If the pregnancy is of an abusive relationship the father has no rights and should be thrown in jail. If someone else wants to speak up for rapists rights let them create their own thread but I would appreciate it if folks stop impying that I was in favor of them because I think a father has rights.

Not that I am supporting rights for abusers by any means, but the fact is that if there was to be such a permission system, and claiming that a pregnancy was the result of rape would automatically bypass that system, that would probably stop most men from pushing the issue, no?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True enough, but then you're adding the humiliation of trying to make strangers believe you're a tramp (even when it's a lie) to the already traumatizing experience of abortion. Why bother?

Another option might be to go through the death notices for ones that don't mention a widow. "Yes, the father is _______, may he rest in peace. We were very much in love. I can't bear to raise his child without him."

So that the father could offer options that the mother had not thought of yet. If the father wants to take care of the baby and is willing to take full responsibility after birth the mother could then take that fact into consideration while making her decision.

I think it's important to point out something here: you don't need any law to get pregnant women to notify the prospective father voluntarily. They can already do that. Any notifications that wouldn't already happen are ones where the woman doesn't want the man's opinions.

What you describe might work fine between willing partners, but I doubt it would be terribly effective when it takes place in an environment of hostility... whoever or whatever the reason for that hostility is.

 

[Alceste]

Not that I am supporting rights for abusers by any means, but the fact is that if there was to be such a permission system, and claiming that a pregnancy was the result of rape would automatically bypass that system, that would probably stop most men from pushing the issue, no?

Only for dishonest women, or women who are willing to be dishonest under duress. I don't have it in me. I'd probably be honest and fight. Do you want a system that forces women to lie?