Abortion | Father's Rights

[DallasApple]

The day is coming, artificial wombs are not that far away. I'm sure at that point new arguments will rise.

Oh I can see it..That will be whole new kit and kabboodle..But I would venture to say..if two people go through that much trouble and expense..you arent talking about an "unwanted or unexpected" pregnancy..

Love

Dallas

 

[Storm]

I still think notification, if not a law, should at least be encouraged. People keep saying that the man should have thought of that before having sex and I agree with that 100%. But I think the woman should have to think of the consequences too. At the very least, she should know her decisions affect more than just her and the child.

I agree with this.

The day is coming, artificial wombs are not that far away. I'm sure at that point new arguments will rise.

When the transference is no more dangerous to the woman than the abortion, then we can talk about father's rights.

 

[DallasApple]

I feel that at the very least, men have the right to complain about the fact that the innocent are being punished for the crimes of the guilty.

I dont understand what you mean by "punished".And by "innocent" versus "guilty".

If it makes you feel any better..I know a lot of women personally that have had abortions.All of them informed the father.The fathers were considered and had input.In fact the input was vital to her decesion.

Its not like a woman wouldn't need really good reasons not to tell him.Its not like there is a secret society of women plotting to deliberately not let him in on it..Just to excersize some sort of power over the man and then go Ha ha ha!!!!YOu have no RIGHTS!

Most women want and "need" to know the father is "involved".

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Unfortunately very few are aware of their total helplessness in the situation.

O.K..are you telling me that there are 'very few" men that are aware that he can not legally enforce a woman to have a baby if she wants to abort it?Or that very few men are aware that if he doenst want the child he cant force her to abort and he is by law going to be responsible to pay some sort of child support after the child is born?

If that is true..that very few men realize that..then then the "majority" of men arent mature or "informed" enough to be haivng sex.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I still think notification, if not a law, should at least be encouraged.

Again if it makes you feel any better..I think it already is "encouraged'.If a woman needs that much "encouragement' to tell the father then she would have to have her reasons.And I dont know if you have considered this..but some women may not want to tell the father because he might PRESSURE her or try and "threaten her" into haivng an abortion.And by threaten I dont mean with "violence" even though a women who is pregnant? Has a significant increased risk of being murdered(statistically) over that of a non pregnant women.

But by "threaten" I mean more along the lines of..well that will be the end of our relationship..Or dont expect me to be around to help raise it you're on your own. Or they get angry and guilt trip you like HEY how could YOU have let this happen now my life is ruined!Or more gently like..c'mon be 'sensible" we have enough on our plates already..this could ruin yours or our chances of achieving "this" or "that"...This is really sad for me too but I think its the most sensible thing to do..But HEY its up to you!

Love

Dallas

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

If that is true..that very few men realize that..then then the "majority" of men arent mature or "informed" enough to be haivng sex.

And you are probably correct, but I would say the majority of both sexes aren't. How many people do you know who started their sexual lives with full knowledge of what they were getting into? The biggest lesson to be taken from this discussion is discuss sex with your kids and don't wait till their old enough to have sex, it's way to late by then.

 

[DallasApple]

How many people do you know who started their sexual lives with full knowledge of what they were getting into? The biggest lesson to be taken from this discussion is discuss sex with your kids and don't wait till their old enough to have sex, it's way to late by then.

Thats what I do..With my "oldest" he is 26..And even at 25 ..he fell for the ole.."Im on the pill' and on top of that reported "she was the one all over him..he didnt even 'want " to have sex with her"..(over and over again ROLL eyes)..I did NOT feel sorry for him.

I have talked very openly with my now 19 year old.All I could do was tell him the truth.And hope he "headed" my warnings.

I understand "young and dumb"..and even "older and dumber still"..(I've been there myself).

But I still can not believe..that "very few" guys dont understand they can't force a woman to have a baby(or prevent her from having an abortion legally)..or to have an abortion if she doesnt want to ..and dont understand if they get her pregnant and she has the baby she can force him to pay child support.

Possibly the very young might not know these things.But unwanted or unexpected pregnancies happen at all ages..

Like I said my son was 25.And he knew FULL good and well it was ultimately up to HER to have the child or not.And he had to go along with what she decided either way.

Unwanted pregancies are sterotyped as a "teenage issue"..Im sorry to inform you now it doesnt stop there.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Have you seen that movie "Knocked Up"..(by the way I recommend it..its blasting hilariious but also very moving)...

They were in there 20's (he was 23)..It was one of those 'drunk things"..he "attempted" to use a condom at her request..but he was having a little trouble gettign it on..then he misinetpreted her .."hurry up and just do it"..(LOL)..He said.."O.K and skipped the condom application.

IOW they both were aware she could get pregnant..Well she did.And you will be happy to know..she "found him"(they were not still "dating it was just that one night) and "informed him..

He KNEW full good and well it was up to her to have the baby or not.He didnt "pressure" her one way or the other...Even though he was in SHOCK and completley unprepared in all ways he knew it was up to her.

I know its just a fictional story..But I would venture to say its based on much of the reality of these things when they happen and how they happen.

Anyway..watch the movie..(warning it does contain sexually "mature" content and language)..But it has a "happy ending"..

Love

Dallas

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

But I still can not believe..that "very few" guys dont understand they can't force a woman to have a baby(or prevent her from having an abortion legally)..or to have an abortion if she doesnt want to ..and dont understand if they get her pregnant and she has the baby she can force him to pay child support.

It's not so much that they don't know that specific fact as it is they don't think of any part of it at all. Men and women, boys and girls, just don't think about what happens after sex unless someone else brings it up and really puts it in front of them. Then it's all deer in the headlights and wow, I never thought of it like that?

 

[DallasApple]

It's not so much that they don't know that specific fact as it is they don't think of any part of it at all. Men and women, boys and girls, just don't think about what happens after sex unless someone else brings it up and really puts it in front of them. Then it's all deer in the headlights and wow, I never thought of it like that?

I understand what you are saying.But more importantly in theory its one thing..and in reality its nothing like what you imagined in theory.

But that goes with most of life's hypotheticals.Most dont have the ability to peer inside that imaginary life circumstance and really know what it would be like.Not for yourself..and especially not for someone else.

Thats why I take it with a grain fo salt when someone says I "know I would this or that" or "I know I would never this or that"..because you really can never know 100%.

Example..when say a child is missing.People look at the parents..And might say something like..they "must have" had something to do with it..look how calm the mother is..she is not even crying..and I "would be" in hysterics and in a constant state of tears and panic..

Now how do you "know" that?..You dont.

And also alnong the lines of what you were saying as to the 'deer in the lights"??People still dont believe "that will happen to them".(even if its subconsciously).

Have you heard the people saying.."what he's dead??that cant be..!! I just saw him yesterday!!"..Even though we all know one thing for sure..we are all going to die.There is no disputing it.But when it happens it feels like its something we were never informed of.

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

think the swab they take is to big to much variables, like how many of those cases was it just sex where the woman claimed rape to blackmail someone? how many of those cases was called rape just because the woman said no while they were already having sex etc

Oh boy! Do you ever need an education! Here we go:

• If she's so drunk or high she CAN'T consent, it's rape
• If she's asleep or passed out, it's rape
• If she's your wife or girlfriend and says no and you force her, it's rape
• If you're in the middle of the act and she says no, and you don't stop, it's rape
• If you're fooling around on a date and she says she doesn't want to go any further, and you continue, it's rape
• If you are doing (or trying to do) anything at all of a sexual nature - not even sex - and she says stop, and you continue, it's sexual assault

Clear now? You can be prosecuted for any of the above, so it's definitely worth knowing. She doesn't even have to put up a physical fight - as soon as she says no, you just stop, OK?

 

[DallasApple]

Oh boy! Do you ever need an education! Here we go:

• If she's so drunk or high she CAN'T consent, it's rape
• If she's asleep or passed out, it's rape
• If she's your wife or girlfriend and says no and you force her, it's rape
• If you're in the middle of the act and she says no, and you don't stop, it's rape
• If you're fooling around on a date and she says she doesn't want to go any further, and you continue, it's rape
• If you are doing (or trying to do) anything at all of a sexual nature - not even sex - and she says stop, and you continue, it's sexual assault

Clear now? You can be prosecuted for any of the above, so it's definitely worth knowing. She doesn't even have to put up a physical fight - as soon as she says no, you just stop, OK?

I was worried about that "example" he gave too.For him (and his ignorance and how much trouble he could get in) and for the girl he might unknowingly rape one day.OH and the above you mentioned?..EVEN counts for married people..Can you believe that?

Love

Dallas

 

[rojse]

If you decide you'd rather not bother paying child support, chances are you'd get away with it unless the mother of your child is either very poor (i.e. on benefits) or very rich (i.e. can afford a lawyer). My uncle, for example, fled with his secretary, leaving my aunt and his three small boys behind. She didn't see any child support. He kept saying he couldn't afford it, and she couldn't afford a lawyer. Meanwhile he bought a huge house and snazzy car and adopted two girls from China with his secretary. He made up for not ever seeing his three kids or contributing to the expense of raising them by mailing really expensive Christmas presents. Granted this is just one example, but get to know some single mothers and you'll discover the whole "stuck paying child support" thing is a bit of a myth.

On the contrary, I know some people whom have to pay child support, regardless of their own personal opinions and wishes, and do not fit into either category.

We could keep throw anecdotes at eachother, but there is a whole government branch that is dedicated to making sure that carers get payments from their child's non-custodial parent. Does it always work? Certainly not, but there is a process that facilitates this.

And when you mention circumstances in which this might occur, you negate the rest of your argument.

 

[rojse]

I was thinking that this is how this issue would actually play out if the law were changed.

I don't think that you'd get too many prospective fathers applying to the courts to stop women from having abortions; I think what would happen much more often is that they'd apply to have their parental responsibility waived if the prospective mother doesn't agree to end the pregnancy.

Well, that seems like a reasonable enough proposition - the woman can have the child that she wants, the man is not burdened with an economic or social responsibility that he does not want.

 

[Alceste]

And when you mention circumstances in which this might occur, you negate the rest of your argument.

Logic fail.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Oh boy! Do you ever need an education! Here we go:

• If she's so drunk or high she CAN'T consent, it's rape

Just curious, what's your opinion of cases where both the man and woman are drunk or high? This seems to be where a lot of these experiences stem.

 

[Alceste]

Just curious, what's your opinion of cases where both the man and woman are drunk or high? This seems to be where a lot of these experiences stem.

If either of them say "no" or "stop", and the other continues it's rape. However, research shows the majority of "these experiences" stem from partners / spouses forcing sex upon their wife or girlfriend, and in the majority of cases, injuries are sustained.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

If either of them say "no" or "stop", and the other continues it's rape. However, research shows the majority of "these experiences" stem from partners / spouses forcing sex upon their wife or girlfriend, and in the majority of cases, injuries are sustained.

I was touching on the concept of alcohol providing some sort of diminished capacity partial defense to rape charges. From what I recall (though I am rusty) alcohol very rarely qualifies as a defense to anything. Perhaps it would be better to moot this point on another thread rather than derailing.

EDIT : made one http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/law/78131-drunken-rape.html if anyone is interested

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, that seems like a reasonable enough proposition - the woman can have the child that she wants, the man is not burdened with an economic or social responsibility that he does not want.

Except it has the same issue with it: abortion can be a major procedure; just as it's considered unreasonable to demand that a woman carry her fetus to term, I think it's unreasonable to demand that she not do so.

Plus, I think that in practical application, if a law like that were actually put in place, it would end up just being a means for deadbeat fathers to have a legal excuse for their deadbeat-ness.

 

[rojse]

Logic fail.

You do not see the logical inconsistency with these two parts of your argument?

If you decide you'd rather not bother paying child support, chances are you'd get away with it unless the mother of your child is either very poor (i.e. on benefits) or very rich (i.e. can afford a lawyer)...

AND

...get to know some single mothers and you'll discover the whole "stuck paying child support" thing is a bit of a myth.