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Abortion | Father's Rights

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
Only for dishonest women, or women who are willing to be dishonest under duress. I don't have it in me. I'd probably be honest and fight. Do you want a system that forces women to lie?

Well, the idea wasn't so much that the system would force women to lie, but that men would be afraid of trying to enforce these hypothetical rights in case the woman turned around and accused him of abuse or rape. I'm glad (and unsurprised) that you would be honest under these circumstances, but I imagine merely the threat of accusing the father of rape would be sufficient for him to drop the matter. I can very much imagine many women would be willing to make at least that threat in what would be a very emotionally turbulent time.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Well, the idea wasn't so much that the system would force women to lie, but that men would be afraid of trying to enforce these hypothetical rights in case the woman turned around and accused him of abuse or rape. I'm glad (and unsurprised) that you would be honest under these circumstances, but I imagine merely the threat of accusing the father of rape would be sufficient for him to drop the matter. I can very much imagine many women would be willing to make at least that threat in what would be a very emotionally turbulent time.

But that was my point.A law requiring consent of the father of the baby is unenforcable for any woman that for whatever her reasons are does not want to inform the one responsible.She wouldnt even have to tell the father she was pregnant in the first place thats the whole point..therefore she woudlnt have to resort to false charges of rape.She could simply say the father moved and she has no idea where he is,hes dead..I dont know who the father is..heck..she could bring in a male friend or relative to pose as the father and sign off consent.The bottom line is there is no way to legally "force" a woman to divulge her pregnancy to the father of the child if she for her own reasons chooses not to.Therefore no way to legally require his consent for an abortion.

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Only for dishonest women, or women who are willing to be dishonest under duress. I don't have it in me. I'd probably be honest and fight. Do you want a system that forces women to lie?

Im an honest person too Alceste.But I cant put myself in every situtation and honestly say under no circumstanses would I keep a pregnancy secret from the father.And if these laws were in place easily figure out how to get around them by resorting to lies.

Heck..look what women resorted to when abortions were out and out illegal.Women werent just "lying" they were "breaking the law" every single day all over the country.

Love

Dallas
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
But that was my point.A law requiring consent of the father of the baby is unenforcable for any woman that for whatever her reasons are does not want to inform the one responsible.She wouldnt even have to tell the father she was pregnant in the first place thats the whole point..therefore she woudlnt have to resort to false charges of rape.She could simply say the father moved and she has no idea where he is,hes dead..I dont know who the father is..heck..she could bring in a male friend or relative to pose as the father and sign off consent.The bottom line is there is no way to legally "force" a woman to divulge her pregnancy to the father of the child if she for her own reasons chooses not to.Therefore no way to legally require his consent for an abortion.

Love

Dallas

I agree, which is why I support the concept of father's rights in principle, but recognise there is no practical way to translate these rights into a workable (let alone desirable) system.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Wow, this is a depressing thread.

After reading these posts I have an observation:

Maybe if people took sex as seriously as it really IS, we wouldn't have so many issues with abortion in the first place, because there wouldn't be so many unplanned children.

Hey, heterosexuals out there - NEWS FLASH - sometimes sexual acts result in PREGNANCY. So - if you want to avoid these nasty situations, don't have sex with someone you wouldn't trust to be a good parent.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Trey, I wonder if you've considered that with power, comes responsibility. A woman facing an abortion is not in an enviable position, she's making a horrendously difficult decision.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
And men suffer tremendously due to abortions - I know a man who paid for his girlfriend's abortion when they were both 19. It's over thirty years later and he's still haunted with guilt and sorrow over that event. As he got older and got married, he wanted a houseful of children - however, his wife only agreed to having one child (something they should have clarified before they were married, I might add).

He will never have more than one child - and this man is terrific with kids. He will forever regret the part he played in what he considers the killing of his own baby.

Furthermore, he told me that his girlfriend never really recovered emotionally from that decision either. Eventually they broke up but both were emotionally scarred - apparently for the rest of their lives.

In my opinion, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime - so to speak. If people are not ready to take full responsibility for the ramifications of their actions, they should rethink those actions and make different choices.

Sex is much more than the pursuit of happiness (ie, a right). It's also a huge responsibility. Those who would argue that it's not are the very ones whose actions so often cause untold sorrow and suffering - for themselves and others.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Sex is much more than the pursuit of happiness (ie, a right). It's also a huge responsibility. Those who would argue that it's not are the very ones whose actions so often cause untold sorrow and suffering - for themselves and others.

Didnt you get the memo ??? Sex is no different than buying a hot dog from a hot dog stand or getting your hair cut.

Love

Dallas
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Didnt you get the memo ??? Sex is no different than buying a hot dog from a hot dog stand or getting your hair cut.

Love

Dallas

How foolish of me. My beliefs on the beautiful intermingling of deep love and respect, passion, total committment, and responsibility are obviously outdated.

Some memos, I just toss aside.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
How foolish of me. My beliefs on the beautiful intermingling of deep love and respect, passion, total committment, and responsibility are obviously outdated.

Some memos, I just toss aside.

Look..it is outdated..its from an Abrahamic God..

I know one thing for sure..I feel the exact same transaction is going on when I go through a Burger King window and order a "biggie fries AND onion rings" as when I have sex with my husband..

It is no different..Both is a need and a hunger filled..

Its that simple..no biggie..(well it depends if its biggie or not).

Love

Dallas
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Look..it is outdated..its from an Abrahamic God..

I know one thing for sure..I feel the exact same transaction is going on when I go through a Burger King window and order a "biggie fries AND onion rings" as when I have sex with my husband..

It is no different..Both is a need and a hunger filled..

Its that simple..no biggie..(well it depends if its biggie or not).

Love

Dallas

WOW, are you KIDDING me????

Personally, I don't see much comparison between sex with my husband and fast food. I get absolutely zero EMOTIONAL fulfillment from a hamburger.

Now if you had compared filet mignon and a fine merlot, after letting my husband gently place escargot into my mouth one piece at a time... finished off with creme brulee by candlelight while he reaches beneath the tablecloth...That's hitting a little closer to home...

But I digress. My point is that to me, sex is more than just fulfilling a base hunger. That seems pretty empty and superficial to me - though I'm sure it has it's temporary satisfaction.

Sex has responsibility tied to it, whether we accept that or not. The Full Meal Deal has strings attached, even when you don't want it to. If you don't believe me, go to the STD clinic, divorce court, a Little League game, or the Maternity Ward for a dose of reality.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
About 6 % of rape charges result in a conviction at this time. "

Ok look, I knew it was bad but 6%? Are you sure? I'll have to research this one. If it's as bad as that I'd have to agree with you. Still, 6% is hard to swallow.

Sorry for the delay in replies, I lost internet service yesterday mid-day. It's been a rough 24 hours.

I still think notification, if not a law, should at least be encouraged. People keep saying that the man should have thought of that before having sex and I agree with that 100%. But I think the woman should have to think of the consequences too. At the very least, she should know her decisions affect more than just her and the child.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Ok look, I knew it was bad but 6%? Are you sure? I'll have to research this one. If it's as bad as that I'd have to agree with you. Still, 6% is hard to swallow.

I can save you some trouble - I got it from here, and they say they got it from a Home Office study. I do recommend googling up some sources of your own though, since that site obviously has an agenda, so the stats are likely cherry picked or massaged, as they always are. Canada has a detailed violence against women survey that is probably worth a look, but it's late, and Terry Pratchett is calling to me.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
People keep saying that the man should have thought of that before having sex and I agree with that 100%. But I think the woman should have to think of the consequences too.

Of course she does.She not only has to think about them..she has more at risk with every sexual encounter than he does.My point was what the man has to remember specifically that part of HIS consequences are not just she might get pregnant..but in ADDITION he has no legal right to keep her from having an abortion if she chooses to..nor does he have the right to walk away(financially) if she decides to have the baby..IOW he can not force her to have an abortion if he doesnt want her to have it.In fact..she can have an abortion and he will never even know she was pregnant to begin with.Its possible even and has happened ..if they arent in a serious relationship..she can go off and have the baby..and he will never even know he has fathered a child.In fact ..I know a woman this happened to.Her mother never informed her father she existed.

She has her own specific set of "possible" consequences she must face.Its both their responsiblilites.All Im saying..is he the man ..shouldnt turn around and complain after the fact..that he has no rights.Which he should have been full well aware of already.

And I cant see any way..to retructure the system giving the man more rights(over the pregnancy itself)..untill there is a way to gestate a human beign outside of a womans body.

In fact there was a case..a couple had fertilized eggs in a fertility clinic.They got divorced..she wanted to preserve the embryos..he wanted them destroyed.It was weird like a custody battle over these embryos.Anyway the judge ruled in the mans favor.I cant remember if the judge allowed the embryos to be destroyed..or if they simply released the man of any future paternal responsiblilty in the event a child was born.But he had more rights simply because the embryos were not in her body and he was not in agreement to have them implanted.

Love

Dallas
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I can save you some trouble - I got it from here, and they say they got it from a Home Office study. I do recommend googling up some sources of your own though, since that site obviously has an agenda, so the stats are likely cherry picked or massaged, as they always are. Canada has a detailed violence against women survey that is probably worth a look, but it's late, and Terry Pratchett is calling to me.

For me its easy to believe.I think a big part of it is the intimate and aquaintence factor..many women initially want to press charges..then they change their minds.Not to mention its hard to prove that someone you have consentual sex with suddenly "rapes" you.Also I noticed they included "coerced" sex.I dont think many women even realize..beign "coerced" into giving 'consent" is a form of assault.

Love

Dallas
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Of course she does.She not only has to think about them..she has more at risk with every sexual encounter than he does.My point was what the man has to remember specifically that part of HIS consequences are not just she might get pregnant..but in ADDITION he has no legal right to keep her from having an abortion if she chooses to..nor does he have the right to walk away(financially) if she decides to have the baby..IOW he can not force her to have an abortion if he doesnt want her to have it.In fact..she can have an abortion and he will never even know she was pregnant to begin with.Its possible even and has happened ..if they arent in a serious relationship..she can go off and have the baby..and he will never even know he has fathered a child.In fact ..I know a woman this happened to.Her mother never informed her father she existed.

Very good points.

She has her own specific set of "possible" consequences she must face.Its both their responsiblilites.All Im saying..is he the man ..shouldnt turn around and complain after the fact..that he has no rights.Which he should have been full well aware of already.

Unfortunately very few are aware of their total helplessness in the situation. I feel that at the very least, men have the right to complain about the fact that the innocent are being punished for the crimes of the guilty. It's very sad that the statistics support your viewpoint, especially for those of us who are not homicidal sadists and rapists but the fact remains. Makes me really hope Karma is real.

And I cant see any way..to retructure the system giving the man more rights(over the pregnancy itself)..untill there is a way to gestate a human beign outside of a womans body.

The day is coming, artificial wombs are not that far away. I'm sure at that point new arguments will rise.
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
think the swab they take is to big to much variables, like how many of those cases was it just sex where the woman claimed rape to blackmail someone? how many of those cases was called rape just because the woman said no while they were already having sex etc
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
think the swab they take is to big to much variables, like how many of those cases was it just sex where the woman claimed rape to blackmail someone? how many of those cases was called rape just because the woman said no while they were already having sex etc

I hate to tell you this..but if a woman tells you to stop after you are already having sex and you dont? ..you are raping her after that point.She has not forfeited her right to consent once sex has started.

And yes..obviously there are women who will "falsley" accuse a man of rape.But I do not think the low prosecution/conviction rate is due to that in any significant way.

Not only that..many women never report they are raped.Its humiliating and degrading.Especially since we know most sexual assaults are commited by someone you know...or are even in an intimate relationship with..including marriage.Then they say you are lying ..and you have the burden of proof..Its sometimes "easier" just to try and pretend it didnt happen and forget about..At least thats what you try tell yourself..

Love

Dallas
 
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