Abortion - is it wrong?

[Quiddity]

Abortion is one of those topics that needs to look at others' points of view. If a woman doesn't believe that the embryo or fetus inside her is alive, then she is not going to see abortion the same way as someone who believes that life begins at or right after conception. It is a fact of life. What I believe personally really has no bearing on what others believe.
I am personally pro-life, but that isn't going to suddenly change anyone else's mind.
But I guess the whole conversation isn't really about abortion, really, but when a human becomes a human- at birth or at conception.

They believe it's alive; they just don't believe it is a person.

I disagree that what you, a pro-choice opponent, and I believe should have no bearing on what others believe or do. Even pragmatically, there is an element of imposing what the masses believe is "good" and making it law.

 

[ChristineES]

I agree, this is where the converstation really strikes.

I do would say that regardless of the acknowledgement of the fact that the product of the union of papa human and mama human is (ta-da!) a human, abortion is still wrong no matter how makes it.

Killing a slave wasn´t deemed as killing a worthy human, it was deem as killing something practically below animals. We wouldn´t judge slave owners by today´s standards because everyone is a child of it´s time and culture, but still we can look to the past and say killing humans is wrong.

I think the same is true when this humans happen to be unborn.

That is true to me, also, in my way of thinking. That even unborn, babies are human and alive.

 

[PolyHedral]

I am not sure what you mean, maybe you could re-phrase it.

An unborn embryo should have incredibly little value, because it is not scarce. As far as most people are concerned, until about 2/3 of the way throguh the pregnancy, one embryo is interchangable with another with the same parents and gender.

Attaching value to things that do not yet exist (i.e. the embryo's future) leads to silly conclusions.

 

[Quiddity]

An unborn embryo should have incredibly little value, because it is not scarce. As far as most people are concerned, until about 2/3 of the way throguh the pregnancy, one embryo is interchangable with another with the same parents and gender.

Attaching value to things that do not yet exist (i.e. the embryo's future) leads to silly conclusions.

That's a lot of silly conclusions. Bye bye desire,etc.

Probably off topic though.

 

[ChristineES]

They believe it's alive; they just don't believe it is a person.

I disagree that what you, a pro-choice opponent, and I believe should have no bearing on what others believe or do. Even pragmatically, there is an element of imposing what the masses believe is "good" and making it law.

That isn't really what I was insinuating. No, just because masses believe something to be right makes it OK. And that can be said about a lot of other things as well.

In my view, abortion is wrong, when used as a contraception method. I believe that embryos and fetuses are human and alive.

I never know what to say about when the mother's life is in danger and pregnancies of deformed children, and a pregnancy as a result of rape or incest. As far as I know, those are much more rare than that of a form of contraception.

 

[Raymond Sheen]

Other than for the sake of argument it seems to me that all of this is pointless if the abortion can be avoided so easily.

 

[Me Myself]

An unborn embryo should have incredibly little value, because it is not scarce.

Like Chinese?

Carry on.

As far as most people are concerned, until about 2/3 of the way throguh the pregnancy, one embryo is interchangable with another with the same parents and gender.

thanks for the info?

Attaching value to things that do not yet exist (i.e. the embryo's future) leads to silly conclusions.

Future in itself doesn´t exist for anyone. We still get mad when people try to kill us because our future has value to us.

 

[Me Myself]

I never know what to say about when the mother's life is in danger and pregnancies of deformed children, and a pregnancy as a result of rape or incest. As far as I know, those are much more rare than that of a form of contraception.

I agree in that they are the rarest forms.

 

[Quiddity]

That isn't really what I was insinuating. No, just because masses believe something to be right makes it OK. And that can be said about a lot of other things as well.

In my view, abortion is wrong, when used as a contraception method. I believe that embryos and fetuses are human and alive.

I never know what to say about when the mother's life is in danger and pregnancies of deformed children, and a pregnancy as a result of rape or incest. As far as I know, those are much more rare than that of a form of contraception.

I understood (and have known for some time) where you stand on this. I was simply addressing the idea that what you believe personally should have no bearing on others. And I basically said that this is already being done, whether you are comfortable with it or not.

Did I misunderstand you?

 

[ChristineES]

I understood (and have known for some time) where you stand on this. I was simply addressing the idea that what you believe personally should have no bearing on others. And I basically said that this is already being done, whether you are comfortable with it or not.

Did I misunderstand you?

I have been taught from childhood- majority rules. But lately I have been seeing the flaw in such thinking.
I misunderstood you, you didn't misunderstand me.

 

[Drolefille]

Sometimes or always?

It is always acting with some amount of responsibility, it is sometimes the most responsible thing. But I rarely try to judge amounts of responsibility and it's impossible to do outside of each specific situation, imo.

The problem it´s not her control over her body, but her killing of her own child´s body.

As long as it is reliant on another body,until it's viable, it doesn't have the right to life support. Even an adult doesn't have the right to be supported off my body w/o my consent.

Completely irrelevant. You wouldn't use the same reasoning for the HIV virus. You don't rationalize the HIV virus as a woman's or man's issue exclusively or delegate responsibility to one or the other. Its a mutual responsibility and the only need for abortion, aside from the rare occasion of rape resulting in pregnancy, is sexual irresponsibility.

I do agree that it is a personal (though mutual) responsibility and due to imperfect human nature it is a delicate position for society and law to prevent more damage which occurs without medical supervision. But don't get in the position in the first place.

It tends to be an emotional and political issue.

HIV affects everyone. Pregnancy affects women primarily and physically.
also, abortion is used in cases of chromosomal defect, a dead fetus, the health and safety of the mother physical and mental, financial inability to support a child, and simple desire not to give birth. People use birth control responsibly and get pregnant.

I agree, this is where the converstation really strikes.

I do would say that regardless of the acknowledgement of the fact that the product of the union of papa human and mama human is (ta-da!) a human, abortion is still wrong no matter how makes it.

Killing a slave wasn´t deemed as killing a worthy human, it was deem as killing something practically below animals. We wouldn´t judge slave owners by today´s standards because everyone is a child of it´s time and culture, but still we can look to the past and say killing humans is wrong.

I think the same is true when this humans happen to be unborn.

Uh, no. I judge slave owners on todays standards. Their culture does not excuse it, there were plenty of abolitionists throughout history.
And a unformed proto human isn't the same thing as a human.

That isn't really what I was insinuating. No, just because masses believe something to be right makes it OK. And that can be said about a lot of other things as well.

In my view, abortion is wrong, when used as a contraception method. I believe that embryos and fetuses are human and alive.

I never know what to say about when the mother's life is in danger and pregnancies of deformed children, and a pregnancy as a result of rape or incest. As far as I know, those are much more rare than that of a form of contraception.

Abortion is always birth control. It is its nature to prevent birth. No matter the other reasons. It isn't contraception ever, because it does not prevent conception.

 

[ChristineES]

Abortion is always birth control. It is its nature to prevent birth. No matter the other reasons. It isn't contraception ever, because it does not prevent conception.

True enough, but it is used to stop birth- and not for medical reasons. So, it is very similar to a contraception. Maybe birth control method would have been a better term to use.

 

[Alceste]

So if I understand the anti-choice men in this discussion correctly, they are willing to lobby to make it illegal for me to control my reproduction completely, but also unwilling to get vasectomies to help prevent unwanted pregnancy. I would say that's a little unfair. I think I may start lobbying to make vasectomies mandatory for any sexually active man who does not want to become a father, and who also believes women should not have the right to terminate an unexpected pregnancy. After ask, why should men be allowed to go around carelessly impregnating people willy nilly if they don't give a toss about the consequences on their partner?

 

[McBell]

Isn't a woman's right to make certain choices superceded in importance by the rights she's infringing upon through those choices?

Yes.
Now since the fetus has little in the way of rights...

 

[McBell]

So if I understand the anti-choice men in this discussion correctly, they are willing to lobby to make it illegal for me to control my reproduction completely, but also unwilling to get vasectomies to help prevent unwanted pregnancy. I would say that's a little unfair. I think I may start lobbying to make vasectomies mandatory for any sexually active man who does not want to become a father, and who also believes women should not have the right to terminate an unexpected pregnancy. After ask, why should men be allowed to go around carelessly impregnating people willy nilly if they don't give a toss about the consequences on their partner?

Its a wonder that women have any rights at all, eh?

 

[Drolefille]

True enough, but it is used to stop birth- and not for medical reasons. So, it is very similar to a contraception. Maybe birth control method would have been a better term to use.

That was the other part of my point. No matter how it is used, it is always birth control.

 

[Quiddity]

So if I understand the anti-choice men in this discussion correctly, they are willing to lobby to make it illegal for me to control my reproduction completely, but also unwilling to get vasectomies to help prevent unwanted pregnancy. I would say that's a little unfair. I think I may start lobbying to make vasectomies mandatory for any sexually active man who does not want to become a father, and who also believes women should not have the right to terminate an unexpected pregnancy. After ask, why should men be allowed to go around carelessly impregnating people willy nilly if they don't give a toss about the consequences on their partner?

That is some horrid logic......

 

[Me Myself]

So if I understand the anti-choice men in this discussion correctly, they are willing to lobby to make it illegal for me to control my reproduction completely, but also unwilling to get vasectomies to help prevent unwanted pregnancy. I would say that's a little unfair. I think I may start lobbying to make vasectomies mandatory for any sexually active man who does not want to become a father, and who also believes women should not have the right to terminate an unexpected pregnancy. After ask, why should men be allowed to go around carelessly impregnating people willy nilly if they don't give a toss about the consequences on their partner?

I would take care of my baby if the mother doesn´t want it. Vasectomy is not the only method for responsable sex.

 

[Drolefille]

I would take care of my baby if the mother doesn´t want it. Vasectomy is not the only method for responsable sex.

When you we can implant embryos into you instead of aborting them we'll give you a call. Until then preventing conception is your only definitive say in the matter until birth.

 

[Alceste]

That is some horrid logic......

I'm glad you can see it for what it was meant to illustrate. Men arguing that they should have authority over women's medical decisions (often tossing in casual comments implying that women who have abortions are at best irresponsible and at worst sociopathic) sound exactly like my post did to you, to me.