Abortion - is it wrong?

[Me Myself]

When you we can implant embryos into you instead of aborting them we'll give you a call. Until then preventing conception is your only definitive say in the matter until birth.

Nobody should have a license to kill an inocent child. Even less the mother.

I'm glad you can see it for what it was meant to illustrate. Men arguing that they should have authority over women's medical decisions (often tossing in casual comments implying that women who have abortions are at best irresponsible and at worst sociopathic) sound exactly like my post did to you, to me.

Completely different, the fault is probably at your (digital)ears.

 

[Drolefille]

Nobody should have a license to kill an inocent child. Even less the mother.

Thing is, I agree with these sentences. I just disagree on your definitions of the terms.

 

[Alceste]

Nobody should have a license to kill an inocent child. Even less the mother.



Completely different, the fault is probably at your (digital)ears.

It is the same: You are a man. You will never experience an unexpected pregnancy. The only people that the question of abortion will EVER affect personally and physically are women. Nevertheless, you feel entitled to decide for me, a woman, whether or not I should be permitted to make such a private, personal medical decision. You think you should make that decision on my behalf because many women lack the character to choose correctly on our own.

I am a woman. I will never experience having a giant sac of pregnancy-inducing fluid dangling between my legs, begging to be unleashed in the general vicinity of a uterus. The only people that the question of vasectomy will EVER affect personally and physically are men. Nevertheless, I am arguing I should be entitled to decide for you, a man, whether or not you should be permitted to make such a private, personal medical decision. I am arguing I should make that decision on your behalf because many men lack the character to choose correctly on their own.

See? Same.

 

[Me Myself]

Thing is, I agree with these sentences. I just disagree on your definitions of the terms.

When a man and a woman love each... wait, no... when a man and a woman have irresponsable unprotected sex they have a (*drums sounding*) human being.

Nature is crazy like that.

The only people that the question of abortion will EVER affect personally and physically are women. Nevertheless, you feel entitled to decide for me, a woman, whether or not I should be permitted to make such a private, personal medical decision. You think you should make that decision on my behalf because many women lack the character to choose correctly on our own.

False. My problem is the effect it has on the child not on the woman. To say women should have "trust" to make the "right choice" because of "character" is like saying let´s not have a penal system anymore because it says human beings can´t choose for ourselves what is best.

Men or women: we don´t. We don´t always choose what is best. Some people choose to murder. Men AND women. I am just saying that women shouldn´t kill their childs. Just because nature gave them the chance to kill them more "intimately" doesn´t mean it is magically not murder.

It is the same: You are a man. You will never experience an unexpected pregnancy. The only people that the question of abortion will EVER affect personally and physically are women. Nevertheless, you feel entitled to decide for me, a woman, whether or not I should be permitted to make such a private, personal medical decision. You think you should make that decision on my behalf because many women lack the character to choose correctly on our own.

I am a woman. I will never experience having a giant sac of pregnancy-inducing fluid dangling between my legs, begging to be unleashed in the general vicinity of a uterus. The only people that the question of vasectomy will EVER affect personally and physically are men. Nevertheless, I am arguing I should be entitled to decide for you, a man, whether or not you should be permitted to make such a private, personal medical decision. I am arguing I should make that decision on your behalf because many men lack the character to choose correctly on their own.

See? Same.

difference is that I don´t kill anyone by not making myself a vasectomy :slap:

 

[Quiddity]

I'm glad you can see it for what it was meant to illustrate. Men arguing that they should have authority over women's medical decisions (often tossing in casual comments implying that women who have abortions are at best irresponsible and at worst sociopathic) sound exactly like my post did to you, to me.

Your point can still be made without such sophistry. Using such terms as "anti-choice" is simply garbage.

I have a higher view of you then this nonsense.

 

[Me Myself]

Your point can still be made without such sophistry. Using such terms as "anti-choice" is simply garbage.

I have a higher view of you then this nonsense.

I agree. to little that I know her, the dueling badge and her awesome avatar made far more hilarious and creepy persuasive sense than this "analogies" she is proposing.

 

[Drolefille]

When a man and a woman love each... wait, no... when a man and a woman have irresponsable unprotected sex they have a (*drums sounding*) human being.

Nature is crazy like that.

Right because people who use condoms never get pregnant. People on birth control never get pregnant. And being raped is totally irresponsible on the victim's part.

When a baby is born there's a human being. A woman's body will spontaneously abort some non-zero percentage of embryos, is that murder too?

 

[blackout]

I just don´t care that the life of her child is "inconvinient" to her. If the life of the mother is at risk, then we are talking. If she just is "too young to be a mother" how it often happens, then I truly think between her "youth" and the entire life of her child, well... I have a very different look into which should be the obvious choice, let´s say that.

Inconvenient is ...
your car breaking down,
having a neighbor come by when you're trying to get out of the house,
a five mile road construction detour,
having to watch your friend's kid for a week,
having your only bathroom remodeled,
losing your heat and hot water for 3 months on account of flooded basement.

Having a baby is not even anywhere close to the same realm as "inconvenient".


EDIT: And if you think it is? You've obviously never had one.

 

[Drolefille]

Your point can still be made without such sophistry. Using such terms as "anti-choice" is simply garbage.

I have a higher view of you then this nonsense.

Anti-choice is more accurate than pro-life. Pro-life refers to many things outside of abortion and it refers to the life of the woman. Many people who consider themselves "pro-life" are willing to sacrifice the life of the woman for their cause.

Anti-abortion, anti birth control and anti-sex equals anti-choice and anti-woman not pro-life.

(Oh and funny how the "pro-life" crowd and the pro-war and pro-death penalty crowd overlap in a pretty venn diagram but that's another story)

 

[Me Myself]

Right because people who use condoms never get pregnant. People on birth control never get pregnant. And being raped is totally irresponsible on the victim's part.

1- This is hardly the majority of the cases that lead to abortion. Most cases are just "whoops! we forgot the condom that time! Nevermind, let´s just take "care" of it"

2- Many people do the right thing in difficult circumstances. Difficult circumstances exist, is part of life.

When a baby is born there's a human being. A woman's body will spontaneously abort some non-zero percentage of embryos, is that murder too?

Not sure I understand the question, If it is involuntary then it is not murder, It´s a involuntary casualty.

 

[Me Myself]

Having a baby is not even anywhere close to the same realm as "inconvenient".
]

Nobody should ever take away my right of killing a family member if things get tough enough. I don´t mean a little hard, I mean REALLY hard.

You shouldn´t kill people, unless it is REALLY hard not to do it.

Free will, people. Oughta respect it.

 

[blackout]

Inconvenient is ...
your car breaking down,
having a neighbor come by when you're trying to get out of the house,
a five mile road construction detour,
having to watch your friend's kid for a week,
having your only bathroom remodeled,
losing your heat and hot water for 3 months on account of flooded basement.

Having a baby is not even anywhere close to the same realm as "inconvenient".


EDIT: And if you think it is? You've obviously never had one.

And the RAISING of a child?

Name me one single thing about the raising of a child
that qualifies DIRECTLY as "convenient".

Literally EVERYTHING about your life changes when you raise a child.
Now if this is what you WANT to do,
you go and change everything about your life,
and you do it lovingly.
You take all of those countless daily inconveniences,
you give up major parts of yourSelf and your life
and bundle them up as par for the course of parenthood.

You become an entirely different person
with an entirely different life.
You must redefine and reorder your entire life-
around your children.
That is, if YOU are ACTUALLY the one doing the child raising.

There is not a SINGLE "convenient" thing about it,
so calling it "inconvenient" is really laughable
to anyone in the know.

 

[blackout]

Nobody should ever take away my right of killing a family member if things get tough enough. I don´t mean a little hard, I mean REALLY hard.

You shouldn´t kill people, unless it is REALLY hard not to do it.

Free will, people. Oughta respect it.

Your comments have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what I said,
or what you quoted me as saying.

The word "inconvenient" does not even factor into this discussion.

That's what I was sayin'.

 

[Me Myself]

Your comments have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what I said,
or what you quoted me as saying.

The word "inconvenient" does not even factor into this discussion.

That's what I was sayin'.

Inconvinient means not- convinient.

It doesn´t say how much not convinient it is, it is basically saying exactly that there is no "convinience" there.

If your problem is the word, then yes, I wholeheartdly agree there is nothing "convinient" about having a child. That is why it is INconvinient.

My argument simply says that killing an inocent person is not okay simply because it is VEEEEEEEEERYYYYYYYYYYY hard or inconvinient to let it live.

 

[Drolefille]

1- This is hardly the majority of the cases that lead to abortion. Most cases are just "whoops! we forgot the condom that time! Nevermind, let´s just take "care" of it"

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]
• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[8]
• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[6]

You really think it's "whoops?" If it were really "whoops!" people would go buy plan B for 50 bucks rather than pay several hundred for a surgical procedure or medical abortion.

2- Many people do the right thing in difficult circumstances. Difficult circumstances exist, is part of life.

And the gulf between us is that you believe that abortion = murder so it therefore cannot be the right thing.
I believe that it is not and cannot be considered murder because until viability, a fetus is not a person.

Not sure I understand the question, If it is involuntary then it is not murder, It´s a involuntary casualty.

We have a charge for that, involuntary manslaughter or perhaps reckless homicide if the mom was particularly careless. If a fetus is a person and abortion is murder than is a spontaneous abortion - as in non-induced - a crime? Is it a tragedy? Do you know it happens in 50-70% of all pregnancies in the first trimester? Most women don't even know they're pregnant. That doesn't count the 15-30% that end in a KNOWN miscarriage after making it past the first few months.

A woman's body is a manslaughtering machine by your standards.

 

[Drolefille]

Inconvinient means not- convinient.

It doesn´t say how much not convinient it is, it is basically saying exactly that there is no "convinience" there.

If your problem is the word, then yes, I wholeheartdly agree there is nothing "convinient" about having a child. That is why it is INconvinient.

My argument simply says that killing an inocent person is not okay simply because it is VEEEEEEEEERYYYYYYYYYYY hard or inconvinient to let it live.

She is saying that your use of the word inconvenient - although horribly misspelled - is like saying that one feels a little down when one has major depression. Do you have children? Do you understand what she's trying to tell you?

 

[blackout]

Inconvinient means not- convinient.

It doesn´t say how much not convinient it is, it is basically saying exactly that there is no "convinience" there.

If your problem is the word, then yes, I wholeheartdly agree there is nothing "convinient" about having a child. That is why it is INconvinient.

My argument simply says that killing an inocent person is not okay simply because it is VEEEEEEEEERYYYYYYYYYYY hard or inconvinient to let it live.

Incongruous.

 

[Me Myself]

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]
• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[8]
• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[6]

Maybe I am looking at the numbers wrong? I should re-check tomorrow, but what iamlooking seems to confirm my stance. Very little of those confirmed correct use of their contraceptive method, and that is even those who say that used it correctly.

Besides it says "duringthe month" that doesn´t mean everytime. Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Only 1% of this was forced sex, so as I said this unwanted circumstances persist to be an ecception. A really uncommon one.

We have a charge for that, involuntary manslaughter or perhaps reckless homicide if the mom was particularly careless. If a fetus is a person and abortion is murder than is a spontaneous abortion - as in non-induced - a crime? Is it a tragedy? Do you know it happens in 50-70% of all pregnancies in the first trimester? Most women don't even know they're pregnant. That doesn't count the 15-30% that end in a KNOWN miscarriage after making it past the first few months.

Should we adjust morals to fit the legal system? I think it should be the other way around. I am no lawyer, but special clauses have always been made and can always be made.

By the data you yourself put, most of this pregnancies come from irresponsable sex, people that most of them can´t even confirm proper use of their contraceptive methods and almost half of them didn´t even use contraceptive methods! only a 1% of this almost half of them (that would be around 0.5% of total more or less? ) has the very unfortunate case of being raped. So now the raping would have two victims.

Peachy.

I may re-see the data tomorrow and I do apologies if the time has made me have mistakes (I shouldn´t respond at this hours, but I like discussing stuff ) but forwhat I immidiatly see it is pretty much "Woops, baby, you know what to do honey because I ain´t taking care of that!"

 

[Me Myself]

Incongruous.

You may wanna move this discussion to the "literature" part of the forum? otherwise I hope you don´t mind letting it go here. I feel it would make the thread go out of main subject

 

[Alceste]

Your point can still be made without such sophistry. Using such terms as "anti-choice" is simply garbage.

I have a higher view of you then this nonsense.

Do you think it is more accurate than calling abortion "murder" and a brainless zygote - an unidentifiable clump of cells - a "child", or less accurate?

People who toss such words around so carelessly are calling dozens of female members of this forum child murderers. And it's a problem if I describe their position accurately? Do anti-abortionists now believe a pregnant woman should be permitted to choose whether or not to have a baby and I just didn't get the memo?