Abortion

[LuisDantas]

is there any one person who has led a life of 100% suffering (dumb question)

Suffering isn't quantifiable in such a way. But I know for a fact that quite a few people would indeed be better off never having been born. And that is before even considering extreme environments such as famine-ravaged countries or Rwanda.

If for one moment a person could feel happy in a life of suffering or even unhappiness, that one moment would be the greatest thing ever. People who are content most of the time usually dont get that (again dumb statment) but something to think about

So?

 

[Slightly Educated]

I guess I'm saying that nobody has a worthless life, and do they have clinical abortion in rowanda or countries like it? ( still only slightly educated )

-Respectfully
Slightly Educated

 

[Atomist]

The reason, aside from the bible which I assume hardly any of you recognize as a legitimate recource, is that I honestly believe that every human life present past and future is worth saving.

Demonstrate that. I don't agree that every human life is worth saving... like hitler's life would not be worth saving.

Aborting babies does effect me, indirectly and directly. Imagine (not a serious proposition) if one of the babies that has been aborted would have grown up to cure cancer?

It works the other way... one of the babies could turn out to be hitler

Or what if it becomes so commonplace that my children dont think twice about it? (again totaly fictitous here)

personal problem... is not a reason to disallow other people from having abortions... tell your children that abortion is wrong... but don't legalize it.

-on an unrelated note
By your earlier reasoning none of us has the right to live before that 23 week period because fetus' use the womans body without her consent in the case of an abortion, correct?

none of us have a right to use another person's body against their will even if it means we will die without using her body...

I think EVEN if a fetus is a human being the women should be allowed to abort the fetus... because the fetus has no right to force the women through pain and suffering for 9 months (or at the very least labor-birth).

 

[Atomist]

Suffering isn't quantifiable in such a way. But I know for a fact that quite a few people would indeed be better off never having been born. And that is before even considering extreme environments such as famine-ravaged countries or Rwanda.

You know I'm thinking of writing a short essay on why suffering is a meaningless concept.

I'll paraphrase the idea here:
Just because YOU find it suffering to live in another person's life it doesn't mean that they find their life a suffering. Like for example if you find it to be a suffering experience to live in africa, that doesn't mean that people born in africa finds it suffering. I mean after all that's only life they know... and they want to live it. I mean not only that you don't see people in Africa committing suicide because life is so hard.

I'm reminded of the allegory of the cave. Sometimes we find ourselves pitting the people looking at the shadows of the figures thinking that they're missing out on so much more in life and they're suffering... but really they're not... they're probably just as happy as we are.

We can't judge life by our standards... because life is about the quantity not the quality.

(I still think it's immoral to force women to keep fetuses against their will)

 

[Slightly Educated]

somehow I knew someone would bring up hitler or someone who committed attrocities like that. I stand by my statment, im not saying what he did was a good thing. However, that being said I believe that every human has right to live good or evil.

The fetus didnt decide to hop into the womb and force the lady to do anything. The baby is there as a result of sex, (something I've said before) it didnt chose to be created or even happen.

And what is your oppinion on dog fighting? or animal rights in general?

 

[Slightly Educated]

and thank you for the post above (most of it anyway)

 

[Atomist]

somehow I knew someone would bring up hitler or someone who committed attrocities like that. I stand by my statment, im not saying what he did was a good thing. However, that being said I believe that every human has right to live good or evil.

Okay fine... hitler should not be killed if you have a chance

The fetus didnt decide to hop into the womb and force the lady to do anything. The baby is there as a result of sex, (something I've said before) it didnt chose to be created or even happen.

So what? That's irrelevant... Let me try again
1) either the fetus is not a human and it does not have the right to live or
2) it is a human and no human can use another human's body against their will.

Either way it doesn't matter... I mean unless you want to explain to me why a human, x, should have the right to use another human's body,y, against their will if x didn't force him/herself on y's body.

And what is your oppinion on dog fighting? or animal rights in general?

How is that relevant? I'm not getting into a red herring convo

 

[Slightly Educated]

Okay fine... hitler should not be killed if you have a chance


So what? That's irrelevant... Let me try again
1) either the fetus is not a human and it does not have the right to live or
2) it is a human and no human can use another human's body against their will.

Either way it doesn't matter... I mean unless you want to explain to me why a human, x, should have the right to use another human's body,y, against their will if x didn't force him/herself on y's body.

The child has ABSOLUTLY no choice whether it is there or not, I fail to see how its the child (x's) fault. Y and the father forced the child to be concived or even have a chance at conception through intercourse. Because of that the child is concived (whether or not it was intentional). And now its (X)s fault that he's using the (Y) body? Thats where you lose me because the sitiation was forced uppon (x).

Respectfully
Slightly Educated

 

[Slightly Educated]

and playing russian roulette with fetus' seems like a poor way to eliminate terrorist threats...

 

[Atomist]

The child has ABSOLUTLY no choice whether it is there or not, I fail to see how its the child (x's) fault. Y and the father forced the child to be concived or even have a chance at conception through intercourse. Because of that the child is concived (whether or not it was intentional). And now its (X)s fault that he's using the (Y) body? Thats where you lose me because the sitiation was forced uppon (x).

It's not X's fault that he/she is using the body of Y, but X is still using the body of Y irregardless... and Y can choose to stop X from using Y's body. It's irrelevant that X had no choice.

It's moral for Y to stop X from using Y's body...

and playing russian roulette with fetus' seems like a poor way to eliminate terrorist threats...

your argument is that fetus, x, has potential to cure cancer therefore it shouldn't be killed... I'm saying but x also has potential to destroy the world... so it's a wash.

 

[Slightly Educated]

If you recognize that X has no choice then how is it that x is blamed for using the body?

 

[Slightly Educated]

It isnt moral for y to stop if y is why x is there

 

[Slightly Educated]

Im saying that good or evil the person has a right to life. If for good, then yay for ever, if for bad, lets hope the trend of people failling at world domination continues. How many people that havent been aborted have been evil as compaired to how many scientists who are working to cure cancer?

 

[Atomist]

If you recognize that X has no choice then how is it that x is blamed for using the body?

I'm NOT BLAIMING X... I'm saying that Y has a right to remove X how is that a blaim.

It isnt moral for y to stop if y is why x is there

So what your saying is that if X is there because of Y then X CAN use Y's body against Y's will? so basically X has more right over Y's body than Y does?

You need to defend it better than saying... "I believe this to be true".

Im saying that good or evil the person has a right to life. If for good, then yay for ever, if for bad, lets hope the trend of people failling at world domination continues. How many people that havent been aborted have been evil as compaired to how many scientists who are working to cure cancer?

I agree they do have a right to life... but since fetuses are not humans yet and are barely more than parasites... we must protect ACTUAL humans over potential humans.

 

[Slightly Educated]

Then who is to blame for x using y's body?

 

[Slightly Educated]

I agree they do have a right to life... but since fetuses are not humans yet and are barely more than parasites... we must protect ACTUAL humans over potential humans.

You admit they have the right to life, even a "non human" fetus. Earlier you even said they were humans didnt you?

You and I and the whole world were once "barely more than parasites" and look what we've accomplished...

the "parasite" doesnt even know hes using y either

 

[blackout]

Some people are realistic.
Some are idealistic.

 

[Slightly Educated]

Please expound.

 

[Slightly Educated]

and i may be an idealistic fool. or in the words of atomist, Red Herring...

 

[Atomist]

Then who is to blame for x using y's body?

Even if It's Y's fault, it's irrelevant to the fact that X is using Y's body against Y's will. That's the part that matters

You admit they have the right to life, even a "non human" fetus. Earlier you even said they were humans didnt you?

You and I and the whole world were once "barely more than parasites" and look what we've accomplished...

the "parasite" doesnt even know hes using y either

You don't get it... what I think has nothing to do with it... I granted that even if they were humans abortion is still morally permissible because a human being can't use another human being against their will...

I'm not going to continue this if you want to have a circular debate... I have way better stuff to do... so either
1) explain why a X should be able to Y's body against Y's will under any condition and why Y would be morally wrong to stop X from using Y's body
or
2) End this discussion... since you obviously want to convince me by repeating the same thing and I explained my position very clearly.

Some people are realistic.
Some are idealistic.

More like some people are realistic. Other people have moral convictions (grounded in religion) that they want to force on other people that do not share their morality.